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[0:01] * monkeycoder (~monkeycod@178.121.174.143) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[0:02] <maswan> plugwash: oh, hey there, saw some debian folks commenting on another arm system, http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451&tab_idx=1
[0:03] <maswan> plugwash: cpu&ram&price look decent, storage/networking less so
[0:04] <plugwash> kais58, i've just put a list of packages in state build-attempted at http://plugwash.raspbian.org/build-attempted.txt
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[0:06] <plugwash> maswan, mmm :(
[0:07] <plugwash> There is also the armbrix zero http://www.howchip.com/shop/item.php?it_id=BRIX5250A
[0:07] <plugwash> but apparently it won't be shipping for a few months
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[0:12] <maswan> I was pondering again bw vs latency for build storage, I guess some of each is needed
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[0:14] <plugwash> probablly but either way there is no way i'd buy that board you linked with further details
[0:14] <plugwash> I have a nasty suspiscion that it probablly has usb based ethernet and that it may well be sharing a usb controller with the usb ports
[0:15] <plugwash> combine that with no sata and as far as i'm concerned it makes the board a no-go
[0:15] <plugwash> kais58, and yess we are still using armv7 boards as buildds, there isn't a whole lot of choice noone makes armv6 hardware with enough ram afaict
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[0:17] <maswan> yeah
[0:17] <Hexxeh> did you look into the chromebooks btw?
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[0:18] <maswan> plugwash: they have specs even, LAN9730HSIC USB 2.0 to 10/100 Ethernet controller with HP Auto-MDIX from SMSC
[0:18] <maswan> plugwash: the common comment was that proper sata and gige on that and it'd be a really interesting microserver
[0:18] <plugwash> maswan, ok that is kinda good news
[0:19] <plugwash> that chip is NOT a usb hub
[0:19] <maswan> http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451&tab_idx=2
[0:19] <plugwash> and it connects over HSIC which means that the ethernet and the usb connections on the board likely have independent connections from the SoC
[0:19] <maswan> no, that would be the USB3503A Integrated USB 2.0-compatible hub / HSIC upstream port from SMSC
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[0:20] <plugwash> maswan where did you find these specs?
[0:21] <plugwash> and are you saying ther eis a USB3503A on the board as well?
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[0:21] <maswan> plugwash: the second link is "specs" tab linked from the first one
[0:24] <plugwash> ok so it seems like there is a HSIC USB hub and a HSIC ethernet controller.
[0:24] * plugwash pulls up the datasheet for the hub
[0:25] <plugwash> looks like all the downstream ports on the hub are regular USB not HSIC
[0:25] <plugwash> which means that the ethernet controller and the hub must be independently connected to the SoC
[0:27] <plugwash> Hexxeh, yeah I looked at the chromebooks and they are a possibility. Two things put me off, 1: the price, 2: the lack of SATA
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[0:29] * plugwash reads down the spec page further and sees a block diagram, could have saved himself the effort of figuring out the topology by what interfaces different chips had
[0:31] <maswan> "Full Schematics will be publically released on 31-January-2013. Please be patient."
[0:32] <maswan> if you need even more detalis, that's from the FAQ
[0:32] <plugwash> yeah, not having the schematics is a bit of a bummer but the block diagram tells me what I'm interested in what is sharing a USB interface
[0:36] <maswan> I wonder, if you can do that and dell it for $89, how much more would it cost to source a proper gige and sata interface?
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[0:38] <plugwash> It's really about the SoCs themselves
[0:39] <maswan> they are mostly geared towards usb:y io?
[0:39] <plugwash> they are mostly designed for phones, tablets, media devices etc
[0:40] <plugwash> and so you have to start looking near the upper end of the market to find good expansion options
[0:40] <maswan> and then there is the mythological arm server that will turn up any year now
[0:40] <plugwash> afaict you can buy an arm server now
[0:40] <plugwash> if you have $10K to spend
[0:40] <maswan> well, yeah, but a sensible server ecosystem then
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[0:42] <maswan> where I could by something like this http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/15351-15351-4237916-4237918-4237917-4248009.html?dnr=1 except even cheaper with a decent arm in it
[0:43] <plugwash> honestly if I have native sata and 2GB ram i'm not TOO bothered about ethernet
[0:43] * maswan nods
[0:44] <maswan> for $work, network, ram, cpu ar the important parameters, together with cost and power
[0:45] <maswan> for storage nodes I'd need pci-e anyway for a proper sas hba/raid controller, I suspect
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[0:46] <plugwash> Right now atom is offering a much better overall package than arm :/
[0:46] <gnarface> yo
[0:46] <plugwash> hi
[0:47] <maswan> plugwash: yeah, or low-end amd if price is more important that shaving a few watts more off
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[0:50] <gnarface> it really depends on whether you care about the power output or the power consumption
[0:50] <gnarface> arm still beats all hands down on lowest consumption
[0:51] <plugwash> gnarface, sorry this was the end of a long conversation that started on buildd hardware but wandered to other things
[0:51] <plugwash> the problem arm has is not so much the cores themselves as the overall package
[0:51] <plugwash> limited memory support, limited expansion options etc
[0:52] <gnarface> ah, well there's that
[0:52] <maswan> there is a very big gap between affordable and "good IO" it seems
[0:55] <gnarface> i think that's true
[0:55] <gnarface> i think that using system-on-chip fab processes save boatloads of money
[0:56] <gnarface> i think the raspberry pi is in fact designed as a proof-of-concept of just exactly how much money you can save by making an unextendable system
[0:56] <gnarface> but what i find novel is just how much you can abuse that "unextendable" status with gpio pins and a couple usb ports...
[0:56] <gnarface> its *possible* not everything needs pci slots anymore
[0:57] <plugwash> maswan, it's getting better, the exynos 5 stuff is looking very promising
[0:57] <plugwash> ok it doesn't have PCIe but it does have SATA and USB3
[0:57] <plugwash> and I belive it has some kind of "traditional bus" too
[0:57] <adama> pity they went $5-10 cheaper than they should have
[0:58] <adama> a slightly better USB controller and more RAM would have helped a lot
[0:58] <adama> especially the people stuck with the original boards
[0:58] <plugwash> the trouble is affordable exynos 5 hardware still seems to be a few months out
[0:59] <plugwash> adama, assuming you are talking about the Pi the impression I get is that the foundation didn't know how bad the USB controller was until it got out in the wild and people started hammering it
[0:59] <maswan> plugwash: yeah, I'm not in a particular hurry, sometimes it just feels like "massively parallel scaling arm servers" have been hyped for a couple of years with "soon"
[0:59] <plugwash> maswan, sure but affordable exynos 5 hardware is now at "preorder now for delivery in a few months"
[0:59] <maswan> plugwash: excellent
[1:00] <maswan> but speaking of soon, or rather late, 'night!
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[1:02] <adama> plugwash: yeah
[1:02] <gnarface> heh
[1:02] <gnarface> i'm just loving the thing for 35$
[1:02] <adama> plugwash: amusing how much time they gave to explaining how lucky they were to find that usb controller in the pre-release media coverage
[1:02] <adama> :>
[1:03] <gnarface> i did not have high expectations
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[1:03] <adama> massively parallel kit tends to scale pretty badly except for specific workloads
[1:03] <gnarface> also my region is undergoing what you call "catastrophic inflation"
[1:03] <plugwash> gnarface, yeah the Pi has it's problems but for the price it's a pretty good deal
[1:03] <gnarface> so 35$ is really cheap to me actually
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[1:03] <adama> 95% of applications would run like treacle on such hardware
[1:03] <gnarface> i've spent more on lunch frequently
[1:04] <noblezeus> Are raspbian releases just tracking wheezy updates? Will raspbian follow wheezy when it is released as stable, or follow the Debian development track?
[1:04] <gnarface> but i also am using it to replace hardware that is actually much slower
[1:04] <adama> i remember advocating multiprocessor arm servers in ~1998, about the time i got my first MP x86 box
[1:04] <gnarface> noblezeus: that's a great question and i would love to know the answer as well.
[1:05] <plugwash> raspbian wheezy will continue to follow debian wheezy
[1:05] <gnarface> adama: i remember advocating multi-processor laptops in 1995 and being laughed out of the room
[1:05] <gnarface> adama: now nobody will buy a phone without at least 4 cores
[1:05] <plugwash> at some point I intend to start raspbian jessie following debian jessie but there may well be a delay between debian jessie opening and raspbian jessie opening
[1:05] * gnarface curses not being born 10 years earlier so he could have grey enough hair to sound authoritative when he proposes something revolutionary and ahead-of-its-time
[1:08] <plugwash> my tentative idea is to get new build hardware, get it hosted at bytemark and get it started building raspbian jessie while the current hardware in mpthompsons basement continues to build raspbian wheezy for a while
[1:08] <plugwash> and then when i'm confident in the new build infrastructure move raspbian wheezy over to it too
[1:09] <plugwash> and finally decommission the old build cluster in mpthompsons basement.
[1:12] <plugwash> noblezeus, gnarface does that answer your question?
[1:13] <gnarface> plugwash: yes, thank you
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[1:14] <noblezeus> plugwash: yes, ty
[1:14] * plugwash wonders if there is a market for used imx53 quickstart boards......
[1:15] <noblezeus> plugwash: do you know where I can find out what has changed between raspbian releases?
[1:16] <plugwash> there really isn't any such thing as "raspbian releases"
[1:16] <noblezeus> trying to determine if I should reflash to the latest.
[1:17] <plugwash> in general there should be no need to reflash, it should just be possible to update the packages in-place
[1:17] <noblezeus> apt-get, etc.
[1:18] <noblezeus> ok, I didn't know if the raspbian group added anything beyond the wheezy code that was documented somewhere.
[1:20] <plugwash> The foundation add some stuff in their images but I don't know if it's documented anywhere exactly what they add :/
[1:20] <plugwash> and how what they add changes over time
[1:20] <plugwash> raspbian itself tries to stay as close to debian as possible
[1:20] <noblezeus> ok
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[11:45] <didrod> bonjour
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[13:52] <Amadiro> Is the stuff in /opt/vc in any package on the mirror, or is it just bundled with the image?
[13:52] <Amadiro> i.e. broadcoms opengl es blobs and the other videocore stuff
[13:53] <Amadiro> ah, looks like it might be in "libraspberrypi0"
[13:56] <Amadiro> yep.
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[16:13] <maswan> adama: the server stuff I'm interested in is already sufficiently parallel, it is all down to jobs/steps/etc done for how much money (also paying for power and cooling).
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[16:52] <morsik> hi, how can i check if i run script on raspbian? normal distros have files like /etc/centos-release, /etc/debian_version
[16:52] <morsik> here i see only /etc/debian_version
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[16:56] <plugwash> why do you need to specifically identify raspbian?
[16:56] <piney> /etc/issue gives a little more than /etc/debian_version not much more though
[16:58] <plugwash> (I ask because the most appropriate method of identifying it depends on exactly what you are relying on)
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[16:58] <morsik> piney: /etc/issue can be modified by user, it's not good to print it into script
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[16:59] <piney> morsik, good to know, which i didn't. thanks
[16:59] <morsik> ...
[17:00] <morsik> piney: np, /etc/issue is not useful at all.
[17:00] <plugwash> In most contexts you should be treating raspbian the same as debian, if you want to know what debian architecture you are dealing with then you can use dpkg --print-architecture
[17:01] <morsik> mhm
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[17:03] <plugwash> if you need to distinguish between debian armhf and raspbian things get a bit trickier, in a software build situation probing the compilers default behaviour is probablly the best way. In other contexts i'd probablly use readelf on a system library.
[17:03] <plugwash> The only times you should really need to distinguish the two though are either when you have optional armv7 specific assembler or when you are downloading and installing prebuilt binaries and have both armv6 and armv7 hardfloat versions of those binaries available.
[17:04] <morsik> i just want to print it into script :)
[17:04] <morsik> i don't write any code that depends on platform for now
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[17:06] <Mogwai> How about /boot/issue.txt?
[17:07] <plugwash> Mogwai, afaict that tells you that you are running on a Pi with a setup similar to the one the foundation uses
[17:07] <plugwash> it neither implies that you are running raspbian nor is it implied by it
[17:08] <atouk> try cat /proc/version
[17:08] <Mogwai> plugwash: Aha, I thought it came from your build routine .. then nevermind
[17:09] <plugwash> atouk, that tells you what kernel you are running which again is orthogonal to whether you are running raspbian
[17:10] <atouk> good to know. i'd hate to be orthogonal before coffee ;)
[17:12] * intothev01d (~intothev0@unaffiliated/intothev01d) has joined #raspbian
[17:13] <piney> plugwash, I saw this posted yesterday, and i was wondering also - will raspbian follow wheezy when it is released as stable?
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[17:15] <plugwash> As I said yesterday raspbian wheezy will continue to follow debian wheezy
[17:16] <plugwash> at some stage I also plan to open raspbian jessie but there may well be a delay between the creation of debian jessie and the creation of raspbian jessie
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[17:18] <plugwash> what image builders (including the raspberry pi foundation) do is up to them
[17:18] <piney> I didn't see your response. thanks
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[17:19] <Imtek> thanks for adding us to the mirror list plugwash :)
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[17:53] * plugwash just wishes we had a more geographically diverse mirror pool
[17:54] <plugwash> right now most of asia is being served from either north america or australia
[17:55] <PhotoJim> is it that big a deal? the speed of the update is never too bad as long as you do it more than once a year.
[17:56] <maswan> hm. can take a look
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[17:59] <plugwash> probablly not that big a deal really, it just seems silly that we keep getting new mirrors in europe where we already have more than enough while some places have to go halfway round the world to get to a mirror
[17:59] <plugwash> I guess that reflects the state of the internet in general though.
[18:00] <PhotoJim> I imagine we get mirrors where there are people willing to sacrifice the bandwidth. and bandwidth is pricier in Australia.
[18:00] <Amadiro> Allright, got a raspbian stripped down to fit on a 512MiB SD card while still having a build-environment with OpenGL, OpenAL & friends, as well as 100 megabyte space for a game
[18:00] <Amadiro> root mounted ro, with small extra partition for storing user configuration data
[18:00] <maswan> yeah, europe is really easy to find mirrors in, north america is fine for low bandwidth demands, asia is very random
[18:00] <plugwash> PhotoJim, interestingly we also have more than enough mirrors in australia
[18:01] <PhotoJim> I have no idea where my mirror is located. probably not in Canada. but it works. :)
[18:01] <maswan> you also have the case that in south america and asia, a neighbouring country might not have a link directly to your country, but you might bounce through the US or another far away networking point
[18:01] <PhotoJim> plugwash: oh, that is interesting. it's Asia that's the problem then? the problem is likely then that the Pi isn't selling as much there as it is in English-speaking countries. (total guess)
[18:01] <maswan> I know that's very true for south america, asia is more random, there are a few places with good connectivity though
[18:01] <PhotoJim> maswan: we have that issue with certain ISPs in Canada. I'm in western Canada, but traffic from ISP to the other local ISP goes 4000 km round trip via Toronto :)
[18:02] <PhotoJim> from my ISP to the other, that is
[18:02] <PhotoJim> they could run fibre eight blocks, but they ... disagree. :)
[18:02] <piney> the pi is doing well in developing countries due to the price point for a basic computer. how well I don't know
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[18:02] <plugwash> PhotoJim, if you are in canada you will almost certainly be served by a mirror in the USA
[18:05] <PhotoJim> plugwash: that'd be my guess.
[18:05] <PhotoJim> plugwash: seems not. UK.
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[18:07] <plugwash> PhotoJim, how are you determining which mirror is being used?
[18:07] <PhotoJim> plugwash: traceroute mirrordirector.raspbian.org - or does it get directed after the initial contact?
[18:08] <plugwash> the mirror redirector is http redirect based
[18:08] <PhotoJim> so what I see here may not be representative.
[18:08] <plugwash> also note that not everything is redirected, in particular requests for package lists are always served from the main server
[18:09] <PhotoJim> is there a way to know where one would get directed then?
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[18:11] <plugwash> http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/pool/main/r/raspbian-archive-keyring/raspbian-archive-keyring_20120528.2_all.deb.mirrorlist
[18:13] <PhotoJim> yes, it thinks my IP is an American IP.
[18:13] <PhotoJim> It's not, but that would result in me using one of the four US mirrors.
[18:14] <PhotoJim> it might recognize my IPv4 IP as Canadian, but I doubt it uses my IPv4 IP.
[18:15] <PhotoJim> Yes, it knows my IPv4 IP is Canadian.
[18:15] <PhotoJim> it gives me 3 US IPv4 mirrors.
[18:17] * MetalGearSolid (~MetalGear@115.135.243.161) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[18:20] <plugwash> geolite data is not perfect :/ but there is no way i'm paying for the commercial geoip data
[18:20] <maswan> it's not like it is likely to matter much either
[18:21] <maswan> the pi is probably going to spend more time unpacking the bzip2:ed packages file than it is going to spend downloading it, even if you end up on a different continent
[18:23] <plugwash> at least the ipv6 geolocation data does seem to have issues
[18:23] <plugwash> for example it thinks my ipv6 ip is in canada :(
[18:23] <PhotoJim> plugwash: where are you actually?
[18:24] <plugwash> UK but the IPv6 tunnel endpoint appears to be in the netherlands
[18:24] <PhotoJim> ahh.
[18:24] <plugwash> (from traceroutes that is)
[18:24] <PhotoJim> my tunnel endpoint is in the US but it correctly thinks my IP is American (even though I'm really in Canada, the /48 is owned by a US ISP)
[18:25] <plugwash> Afaict the problem with freenet6 IPs is that freenet6 are canadian
[18:25] <plugwash> and so the "geoipv6" database has their IPs listed as canadian even though that isn't where the PoPs are
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[19:47] <Damned_> is it just me or something else, when i try to run /lib/udev/findkeyboards -> instant oops?
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[21:09] <dexta> is xstarted by default on 2012-12-16-wheezy-raspbian image ? & what about s video & hdmi ?
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[21:10] <dexta> would seem not :)
[21:10] <dexta> would of been nice to seen in the FAQ that the nic is conf'd to dhcp
[21:14] * xaxisofevil (~asoccerpl@175.176.245.91) has joined #raspbian
[21:14] <xaxisofevil> hi everyone.. i'm having trouble starting my samba share drive, was hoping to get a little help
[21:15] <xaxisofevil> i set it up by the letter following this tutorial
[21:15] <xaxisofevil> http://simonthepiman.com/how_to_setup_windows_file_server.php
[21:15] <xaxisofevil> and yet when i try to hit the pi, it asks for my credentials, which i provide, and i always get access denied
[21:16] <xaxisofevil> its an NTFS drive, could that be the problem?
[21:16] <xaxisofevil> or my router isnt passing something through
[21:17] <xaxisofevil> from everything i've read online, my smb.conf is fine..
[21:17] <dexta> i would imagine the answer is in ur samba conf
[21:17] <dexta> paste bin it maybe ?
[21:17] <dexta> is there a wiki for my above mentioned image ?
[21:18] <xaxisofevil> its set up exactly as the tutorial linked
[21:18] <dexta> k
[21:18] <dexta> ill have ganders
[21:18] <xaxisofevil> thx
[21:18] <plugwash> have you remembered to set a samba password for the user you are trying to connect as?
[21:19] <netw1z> anyone gotten bluetooth audio recording working under raspbian?
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[21:19] <plugwash> unfortunately due to the way windows authentication and unix password hashing work normal unix passwords cannot be used for samba logins, you have to set a samba password explicitly
[21:20] <dexta> thats a good idea ^
[21:20] <xaxisofevil> aye, done that
[21:20] <xaxisofevil> workgroups are verified the same as well
[21:20] <xaxisofevil> also when i type the wrong pass, thats the message i get- bad password
[21:21] <xaxisofevil> but i'm getting the Access Denied message when i give the proper pass
[21:21] <plugwash> I'd suggest going and asking in a samba irc channel or so
[21:21] <plugwash> we haven't done anything special to samba in raspbian
[21:21] <xaxisofevil> oh, wasnt aware there was one, sorry :D
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[21:26] <dexta> sorry got work side tracked then, was gonna say thats a samba issue not a raspbian issue :)
[21:28] <confusid> I'm trying to setup 2 cameras with motion. I am able to have one camera work but then after a few minutes it just stops. Not sure what to look at for trying to fix it
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[21:29] <dexta> usb powered ?
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[21:30] <confusid> yes
[21:31] <confusid> have the pi powered by 5v 1a power supply and the cams are the only 2 usb items. They are plugged into a usb hub with 5v 3.2a
[21:33] <confusid> and they draw 500ma each.
[21:34] <confusid> so it is well under the power that is supplied.
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[22:24] * XenGi is now known as XenGi_
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[22:36] * raytray (~raytray@ip98-169-165-246.dc.dc.cox.net) has joined #raspbian
[22:36] * raytray (~raytray@ip98-169-165-246.dc.dc.cox.net) Quit (Changing host)
[22:36] * raytray (~raytray@unaffiliated/raytray) has joined #raspbian
[22:50] * meti (~meti@gateway/tor-sasl/meti) has joined #raspbian
[22:55] * confusid (~confusid@static-71-178-222-34.washdc.fios.verizon.net) has left #raspbian
[23:05] * teepee (~quassel@port-92-206-7-90.dynamic.qsc.de) Quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
[23:06] * teepee (~quassel@port-92-206-7-90.dynamic.qsc.de) has joined #raspbian
[23:09] * lupinedk is now known as Lupinedk
[23:09] * Syliss (~Home@adsl-108-94-48-239.dsl.chi2ca.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Quit: Syliss)
[23:09] * raytray (~raytray@unaffiliated/raytray) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:13] * MartyMcFly is now known as bofh
[23:13] * bofh is now known as MartyMcFly
[23:14] * monkeyco_ (~monkeycod@178.120.191.122) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:16] * ebraminio_ (~ebraminio@151.247.143.233) has joined #raspbian
[23:17] * twolife is now known as twolife`
[23:18] * ebraminio (~ebraminio@wikipedia/ebraminio) Quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[23:22] * Skelli is now known as Skelli_zZz
[23:28] * meti (~meti@gateway/tor-sasl/meti) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:32] * BCMM (~BCMM@unaffiliated/bcmm) has joined #raspbian
[23:35] * meti (~meti@gateway/tor-sasl/meti) has joined #raspbian
[23:38] * jgrafton (~jgrafton@cpe-75-185-220-46.woh.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
[23:39] * raytray (~raytray@ip98-169-165-246.dc.dc.cox.net) has joined #raspbian
[23:39] * raytray (~raytray@ip98-169-165-246.dc.dc.cox.net) Quit (Changing host)
[23:39] * raytray (~raytray@unaffiliated/raytray) has joined #raspbian
[23:40] * Datalink|Elsewhe (~Datalink@unaffiliated/datalink) has joined #raspbian
[23:40] * simone_ (~simone@host200-157-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #raspbian
[23:43] * Datalink (~Datalink@unaffiliated/datalink) Quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[23:44] * simone__ (~simone@host38-23-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[23:54] * _Lucretia___ is now known as _Lucretia_
[23:54] * _Lucretia_ (~munkee@5ac2a2f8.bb.sky.com) Quit (Changing host)
[23:54] * _Lucretia_ (~munkee@pdpc/supporter/active/lucretia) has joined #raspbian
These logs were automatically created by RaspbianLogBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.