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[0:21] <Vegar> plugwash: awesome
[0:21] <Vegar> plugwash: thanks a lot
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[0:36] <vagrantc> plugwash: the one patch that i didn't pull from git is basically: https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/issues/112
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[0:44] <plugwash> That seems to imply it's only an issue if DWC-OTG is built as a module
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[0:45] <plugwash> which IMO it shouldn't be
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[0:47] <plugwash> and it seems you aren't
[0:47] <vagrantc> plugwash: haven't tried either, but that's the issue i worked around.
[0:47] * vagrantc suspects the DWC-OTG is a red herring
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[2:38] <sheldor> dudes
[2:39] <sheldor> i have a serious question
[2:39] <sheldor> why is the apache package in raspbian ages old!????
[2:39] <sheldor> it is apache 2.2 which is from 2006 !!
[2:39] <sheldor> WTF
[2:39] <sheldor> whats going on here
[2:40] <xrq> oldie but goodie
[2:41] <sheldor> xrq: dude
[2:41] <sheldor> it is almost a decade old
[2:41] <sheldor> isnt it full of vulnerabilities and shit?
[2:42] <plugwash> erm
[2:42] <xrq> probably
[2:42] <sheldor> actually it is from 2005
[2:42] * sheldor hides it under a desk
[2:42] <sheldor> xrq: dude
[2:43] <xrq> given I haven't seen raspbian updated with any security fixes... ever... I'm guessing it is full of known vulns too
[2:43] <sheldor> why are you so calm
[2:43] <sheldor> this is a catastrophe
[2:43] <xrq> the latest and greatest apache is full of vulns too
[2:43] <sheldor> huh
[2:43] <sheldor> why do you think that
[2:44] * plugwash slaps xrg arround a bit with a large trout
[2:44] <plugwash> *xrg
[2:44] <plugwash> *xrq
[2:44] <xrq> I guess you're new to security?
[2:44] <sheldor> plugwash: was he trolling me?
[2:44] <sheldor> yes
[2:44] <xrq> not at all
[2:45] <sheldor> xrq: can you explain your feverish train of thought
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[2:45] <plugwash> I'm not sure he was deliberately trolling as much as failing to understand release processes
[2:46] <sheldor> why would he say the latest and greatest apache is full of vulns
[2:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o plugwash
[2:46] <sheldor> and why did he say raspbian doesnt receive security fixes
[2:46] <plugwash> because he is clueless most likely
[2:47] <plugwash> yes the apache 2.2 series is old but afaict the 2.4 series didn't go stable until very recently
[2:47] <sheldor> plugwash: still, why is an apache version from 2005 in the latest raspbian release
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[2:47] <gnarface> tracking debian testing....
[2:47] <plugwash> define "version from 2005"
[2:47] <sheldor> plugwash: are you saying the 2.2 series still receives updates and raspbian got the latest?
[2:48] <sheldor> oh that makes sense i just found out that 2.2.22 is actually from january 2012
[2:48] <sheldor> nice
[2:48] <gnarface> interestingly enough this is more of a debian question than a raspbian question
[2:49] <sheldor> plugwash: but it raises another question: there is already a 2.2.23 and even since june 2012. why does the raspbian of 2013 still include the 2.2.22?
[2:49] <gnarface> because wheezy is officially frozen...
[2:49] <gnarface> only bug fixes
[2:49] <gnarface> no security fixes
[2:49] <sheldor> gnarface: oh, why?
[2:49] <gnarface> because its in the final stage before going stable
[2:50] <plugwash> gnarface, indeed, other than a few packages where we regretablly have problems building new versions, a few packages that need manual forward porting and a few packages which take fucking ages to build we are usually within about 12 hours of raspbian
[2:50] <gnarface> where it will only receive security fixes and stability/compatibility fixes
[2:50] <_ds_> Security fixes are bug fixes…
[2:50] <sheldor> oh
[2:50] <plugwash> *of debian
[2:50] <sheldor> gnarface: so it is basically a beta?
[2:50] <sheldor> he probably meant functional bug fixes
[2:50] <gnarface> sheldor: yes think of it as a final beta
[2:51] <sheldor> ah thanks gnarface that makes sense
[2:51] <sheldor> gnarface: this is what xrq meant by "i havent seen raspbian updated with any security fixes ever"?
[2:52] <plugwash> I don't know where he is looking but as I said the vast majority of changes that go into debian wheezy go into raspbian wheezy within 12 hours
[2:52] <sheldor> plugwash: but no security fixes go into debian wheezy
[2:52] <gnarface> sheldor: so raspbian is working off upstream's final beta basically, and upstream only bothers really with security-specific targeted patches in final products. that's what he's complaining about.
[2:52] <sheldor> only functional bug fixes
[2:52] <sheldor> until it becomes stable
[2:52] <plugwash> sure they do
[2:53] <_ds_> That'll need to include wheezy/updates (security.d.o).
[2:53] <gnarface> wheezy *will* get security
[2:53] <gnarface> will it right?
[2:53] <sheldor> plugwash: but gnarface said that and the current wheezy still contains apache 2.2.22 although there is a 2.2.23 security fix since june 2012
[2:53] <gnarface> when it goes stable
[2:53] <plugwash> they don't generally go through the security.debian.org servers but the DO go in
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[2:53] <sheldor> yes gnarface
[2:53] <plugwash> sheldor, debian wheezy and raspbian wheezy contain debian version 2.2.22-12
[2:54] <gnarface> sheldor: i didn't say specifically what version was in the current wheezy, id didn't check. i just meant to inform you that if its old that's why.
[2:54] <plugwash> so it's based on 2.2.22 but there have been 12 different debian revisions based on that upstream version
[2:54] <sheldor> plugwash: but there is 2.2.23 already since june 2012
[2:54] <_ds_> (there are two packages in wheezy/updates main right now, as it happens)
[2:54] <sheldor> gnarface: i did check, it currently contains 2.2.22
[2:55] <_ds_> What are the plans regarding backports?
[2:55] <sheldor> gnarface: yes the empiric evidence supports your model
[2:55] <plugwash> once a debian release is frozen debian generally (there are exceptions) backports fixes rather than taking new upstream versions
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[2:56] <sheldor> so are there any critical security issues in raspbian now?
[2:56] <sheldor> or can i run it as a webserver
[2:56] <_ds_> s/empiric/empirical/ (not sure what empiric is supposed to mean, but it suggests empire)
[2:56] <gnarface> sheldor: i'd certainly be wary with it
[2:57] <gnarface> sheldor: i don't know of any specifically, but if its something important you might want to consider checking on the scripting engine especially
[2:58] * gnarface knows a lot of people do it
[2:58] <xrq> <plugwash> because he is clueless most likely
[2:58] <sheldor> _ds_: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empiric
[2:58] <sheldor> gnarface: which scripting engine?
[2:58] <xrq> plugwash: seriously? show me some real security fixes or stfu
[2:58] * xrq was kicked from #raspbian by plugwash
[2:59] <gnarface> sheldor: well like i had php in mind, but if you aren't using php, flat html IS significantly more secure inherently
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[2:59] <xrq> why the kick? you insult me then kick me off?
[2:59] <sheldor> gnarface: okay let me check the php version
[2:59] <xrq> sorry for helping to inform you about security in 2013, I promise it won't happen again
[3:00] <sheldor> PHP 5.4.4-10 (cli) (built: Dec 5 2012 06:51:42)
[3:00] <plugwash> Yeah I do, misleading people about the age of the apache version in raspbian and then telling an op to shut the fuck up is a good way to get kicked
[3:00] <xrq> I never said anything about the age of apache dumbass
[3:00] <xrq> and I never said "fuck"
[3:00] <sheldor> hm weird, 5.4.4 is ages old: june 2012
[3:00] <_ds_> You just did.
[3:01] <sheldor> ther is 5.4.9 now
[3:01] <sheldor> there*
[3:01] <plugwash> xrq, you used an abbriviation whose normal expansion contains fuck
[3:01] <sheldor> yet there is a -10 in the debian release
[3:01] <xrq> _ds_: wellif we had a time machine your argument would fucking make sense idiot
[3:01] <xrq> plugwash: and you called me clueless. so touche'
[3:01] * _ds_ points out the “most likely”
[3:02] <xrq> plugwash: so you think that all software without known vulnerabilities is secure?
[3:02] <xrq> I mean, seriously?
[3:02] <_ds_> Up to you to show otherwise. So far, you're doing badly.
[3:02] <plugwash> ok sorry it was sheldor that started the misleading posts about apache but you effectively told him he was right
[3:02] <xrq> I have some real estate in swampland to sell you
[3:02] <sheldor> gnarface: the 5.4.9 to 5.4.4 also contains functional bug fixes, why didnt wheezy include it yet?
[3:03] <xrq> if you want to insult people who try to inform you of your ignorance, fine. I'll stop trying
[3:03] <sheldor> gnarface: the 5.4.9 to 5.4.4 difference also contains functional bug fixes, why didnt wheezy include it yet?*
[3:03] <xrq> appears to be a lost cause
[3:03] <_ds_> 5.4.4 in wheezy & sid, 5.4.9 in experimental. If sticking with wheezy, 5.4.9 isn't going to be included – unless (post-release) backports are added.
[3:04] <sheldor> gnarface: can your model explain this new empiric data?
[3:04] <_ds_> Question is will there be a backports repository…
[3:04] <gnarface> sheldor: yes, _ds_ just did
[3:04] <sheldor> _ds_: 5.4.9 is not experimental according to the php devs
[3:04] <sheldor> sorry just read it
[3:04] <plugwash> As I said once frozen debian generally backports fixes rather than bringing in whole new upstream releases. Most linux distros do its the only reasonable way to get a distro internally consistent enough for release.
[3:05] <sheldor> "backporting fixes" mean adding fixes from newer official releases to older releases and adding a -<number> after the official version?
[3:05] <gnarface> sheldor: the issue is 5.4.9 no doubt also probably contains incompatibilities with the fundamental api of 5.4.4 so will not be put into wheezy (because its frozen)
[3:06] <_ds_> Bug fixes backported to the version in wheezy, wherever practical.
[3:06] <sheldor> i see
[3:06] <sheldor> can you define "backported" precisely?
[3:06] <gnarface> sheldor: and yes, that's what backporting fixes means. it means those version numbers in debian that you freak out about because you know of some bug that was in that version when it was released as source are basically irrelevant to your shit fit
[3:06] <sheldor> thanks
[3:07] <sheldor> nice
[3:07] <plugwash> sheldor, right selectively picked fixes for security issues and other major bugs while trying to avoid changes that are too intrusive and therefore likely to break stuff
[3:07] <sheldor> so i can assume all critical fixes are added through the -<number> backporting process
[3:07] <gnarface> sheldor: debian patches them with the new fixes, while maintaining compatibility with old versions of software
[3:07] <gnarface> sheldor: at least, that's the idea
[3:07] <sheldor> gnarface: yet you said wheezy currently does not care about security fixes
[3:07] <_ds_> Occasionally, newer upstream releases have been added to a stable release where bug fixes are needed (for security reasons) but are too awkward to apply to the older version.
[3:08] <gnarface> sheldor: well the -[number] is basically just the package revision number. a few different types of updates can iterate that
[3:08] <sheldor> gnarface: so do i have to assume that all the -<number> fixes are purely functional and upstream security fixes are not backported but simply ignored?
[3:08] <_ds_> wheezy/backports would contain packages from testing (which, by this time, will also be known as jessie).
[3:08] <plugwash> sheldor, if you want to know exactly what fixes were included read the damn changelog
[3:09] <sheldor> plugwash: no i want to know how the generic process works
[3:09] <gnarface> sheldor: once something goes stable, it gets security patches from a separate, parallel repo specifically for stable. that doesn't exist (or is empty) for wheezy and sid, so no it doesn't get them "as such" but its not like they'd throw out security fixes from the developers upstream in spite either
[3:09] <_ds_> wheezy/backports, therefore, would contain changes which aren't considered suitable for backporting to wheezy proper.
[3:09] <_ds_> (as well as some which are)
[3:09] <sheldor> gnarface: so basically i should not use wheezy for production stuff
[3:10] <gnarface> sheldor: not he -[number] revision iterations can even be shit like changes to the package itself (like changes to the default config files included, etc)
[3:10] <sheldor> because i would have to manually verify every single possible fix specifically
[3:10] <gnarface> sheldor: debian would advise you do NOT use wheezy for production stuff, correct. but wheezy will probably be stable this year...
[3:10] <sheldor> i see gnarface
[3:10] <sheldor> gnarface: so why did raspian pick wheezy instead of a stable release?
[3:10] <plugwash> generally things get reported to the maintainer, the maintainer considers them in light of the current freeze policy and applies them if appropriate and uploads to unstable, after the requiste delay to check for regressions in unstable and an unblock from the release team (who have to approve all changes during a freeze) the package migrates to debian wheezy
[3:12] <plugwash> in general debian security alerts will give a fixed version for unstable, you can tracks that's progress from debian sid to debian wheezy to raspbian wheezy or build it yourself if you are especially in a hurry
[3:12] <gnarface> sheldor: because the current stable release is WAAAAAAY old and only will be supported BY upstream for like, a year after wheezy goes stable so... wheezy is a good choice because its nearly ripe
[3:12] <xrq> <plugwash> ok sorry it was sheldor that started the misleading posts about
[3:12] <xrq> apache but you effectively told him he was right
[3:12] <xrq> no, I made a quip. it's a friday night for crying out loud
[3:12] <sheldor> actually what is this sid you keep talking about?
[3:12] <_ds_> sid == unstable
[3:13] <sheldor> i didnt find any release named sid
[3:13] <sheldor> oh
[3:13] <sheldor> what does it stand for literally
[3:13] <_ds_> It's a code name, same as wheezy is a code name.
[3:13] <plugwash> like other debian release names it's a reference to a toy story character
[3:13] <sheldor> i see gnarface
[3:13] * xrq goes to get dinner
[3:13] <plugwash> (sid being the kid next door who breaks the toys)
[3:13] <atouk> ah didn't know that
[3:14] <sheldor> _ds_: it is a code name not used by the debian developers
[3:14] * _ds_ is aware what it is
[3:14] <atouk> do hey progress alpahbetically?
[3:14] <plugwash> No
[3:14] <_ds_> … it is used, as it's always unstable.
[3:14] <sheldor> _ds_: i mean it is not mentioned in the release notes
[3:15] <_ds_> Well, it's unstable. It'll always be that. So there's no need to mention it ☺
[3:15] <plugwash> As to why the initial version raspbian is based on wheezy it's because wheezy is the first release to have armhf
[3:15] <sheldor> okay
[3:15] <sheldor> ah
[3:16] <sheldor> thanks i understand it much better now
[3:17] <sheldor> i still think it is stupid to not add all security fixes to a frozen version
[3:17] <sheldor> i mean it must be added anyway once it becomes stable
[3:17] <sheldor> so why not do it right away and make it more usable for early adopters
[3:17] <plugwash> the DO generally get added just not through a dedicated security team
[3:17] <sheldor> why not?
[3:18] <sheldor> that just procrastinates the work into the future
[3:18] <sheldor> eventually it must be added through a dedicated sec team anyway
[3:18] <plugwash> not really, they just get handed through the regular update process which takes a little longer
[3:19] <sheldor> ah
[3:21] <sheldor> also once a version becomes frozen does another unfrozen version come into existence?
[3:21] <plugwash> No, that doesn't happen until it actually becomes stable
[3:22] <_ds_> (though there is unstable which, technically, isn't frozen)
[3:22] <_ds_> (but for practical purposes may as well be)
[3:22] <sheldor> _ds_: but wheezy itself is the current unstable, which is frozen
[3:22] <_ds_> No.
[3:22] <plugwash> no wheezy is current testing which is frozen
[3:22] <sheldor> oh sorry
[3:22] <sheldor> unstable == sid
[3:22] <sheldor> right
[3:22] <sheldor> right
[3:23] <plugwash> sid is always unstable and is never strictly frozen, however in reality if you upload changes not intended to migrate to the current testing the release team are likely to yell at you
[3:23] <sheldor> and once testing becomes stable, unstable becomes testing and a new sid is born
[3:23] <atouk> fir unstable, sid is definitely a good name chioce
[3:24] <_ds_> sheldor, not quite.
[3:24] <sheldor> ?
[3:24] <plugwash> testing becomes stable, a new testing (with a new codename) is creates as a copy of the old one
[3:24] <_ds_> Yes
[3:24] <plugwash> and the freeze restrictions are lifted from the new testing
[3:24] <sheldor> oh, i thought as a copy of sid!
[3:24] <sheldor> this doesnt make sense
[3:25] <sheldor> if the new testing is a copy of the old testing then it means all the frozen stuff (which is already unfrozen in sid) must be unfrozen and changed all over
[3:25] <sheldor> so why wouldnt current sid become the new testing instead
[3:25] <_ds_> When the release is done, package migration (unstable→testing) is permitted again.
[3:25] <plugwash> once it's unfrozen changes will start migrating from sid again (provided they pass the checks)
[3:26] <sheldor> also wht is the point of sid if it never becomes something else, it is some kind of independent useless parallel distro that nobody ever uses?
[3:26] <_ds_> So any RC bugs holding packages from migration continue to do so.
[3:27] <plugwash> mainly as an area for packages to go and be tested by <s>suckers</s> bleeding edge users before they migrate to testing
[3:27] <sheldor> okay
[3:27] <sheldor> so it is like a crazy testbed or something
[3:27] <plugwash> and also as an area for packages to be built etc so that when they migrate to testing it can remain internally consistent
[3:27] <plugwash> (testing is mostly required to be internally consistent, unstable isn't)
[3:28] <sheldor> okay
[3:29] <sheldor> thanks all
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[3:36] <sheldor> are there other linux distros for the rpi?
[3:36] <sheldor> stable ones
[3:39] <sney> there was a release made from debian squeeze, but it was really hacky and weird
[3:42] <sheldor> ah
[3:42] <sheldor> is porting a distro to the rpi much work?
[3:44] <sney> porting a distro to any piece of hardware is a lot of work, though things like package managers and build systems do make it easier
[3:44] <sney> strictly speaking anything with an armel port should run on the pi, though booting may be another story
[3:45] <atouk> are all the pi releases compiled on pis?
[3:48] <sney> I think they are done inside pbuilder chroots on other systems, just for speed reasons
[3:58] <xrq> sheldor: there is arch for starters
[3:58] <xrq> sheldor: fwih the other major distros run on rpi
[3:58] <sheldor> ah thanks xrq
[3:58] <gnarface> i actually thought the new testing WAS essentially a fork of the unstable at tha ttime
[3:59] <gnarface> which is why unstable and testing are very similar during testing's freeze
[3:59] <sheldor> gnarface: that would make more sense to me
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[3:59] <MachinaeWolf> What's that other coding program on raspbian besides scratch?
[4:00] <sney> sheldor, arch can't be considered "stable" though.
[4:00] <sney> MachinaeWolf, coding program? like an integrated development environment, an editor that can call compilers and debuggers etc?
[4:00] <gnarface> sheldor: currently, lsb_release -a on my sid machine even says its wheezy. its common to see them both called wheezy/sid too
[4:01] <MachinaeWolf> I forget what it is but it's next to scratch in the menu iirc
[4:01] <sheldor> interesting gnarface
[4:02] <sney> IDEs that would be in a menu on a gtk desktop... I'm guessing geany, MachinaeWolf. but there are many available.
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[4:11] <xrq> sney: really? why not?
[4:12] <sney> well, I guess it depends on whose definition of "stable" you're using, but I wouldn't rely on a rolling release in production. if something is going to be considered stable, I need to be able to deploy it, enable automatic updates, and not worry that some config file syntax is going to randomly change while I'm not looking
[4:13] <sney> rolling releases and unstable/testing are where that sort of thing can happen.
[4:15] <xrq> yeah, that's true. debian ftw
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[4:17] <xrq> my plans for my raspberry pi are a bit less ambitious. check server health, power some up-to-date information displayed on a wallmounted monitor. at least for now anyways
[4:18] <sney> I just run it as a low power home server for a terminal and znc
[4:19] <xrq> oh, and setting up one as a honeypot will be fun too
[4:19] <xrq> even more so since you can't download a normal linux binary and just run it on there
[4:20] <sney> a normal x86 binary, that is.
[4:20] <xrq> exactly
[4:20] <sney> but uname -m will give an attacker that information simply enough
[4:20] <xrq> unless you can make it lie about that from within the pseudo jail
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[4:21] <xrq> you could replace uname with a fake tool within the jail
[4:21] <OutOfLine> my pi does solar powered irc logging, the pc stays off most of the time ;)
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[4:43] <sheldor> sney: how is rolling release defined?
[4:43] <sney> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release
[4:44] <sheldor> thx
[4:45] <sheldor> sney: can you give an example of a rolling release linux distro?
[4:46] <sney> arch
[4:46] <sheldor> thx
[4:46] <sheldor> sney: how does one enable automatic updating?
[4:46] <sheldor> on raspbian
[4:47] <sney> there are some packages like unattended-upgrades but they are designed for server administrators, not end users.
[4:47] <sheldor> how so
[4:47] <sney> I think synaptic or the other graphical tool may have an automatic upgrade function too, but I haven't looked
[4:47] <sheldor> also i dont want automatic upgrading
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[4:48] <sheldor> just updating within the same release
[4:48] <sney> yeah, that's what it means
[4:48] <sheldor> i dont want to jump from wheezy to whatever comes after it
[4:48] <sney> it doesn't modify sources.list, it just keeps up to date with what's available
[4:48] <sheldor> sney: no upgrading means jumping from sneezy to wheezy or something
[4:48] <sheldor> updating means getting the latest patches and fixes within sneezy or wheezy
[4:50] <sney> right
[4:50] <sney> though there is no debian 'sneezy'
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[4:52] <sheldor> thx
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[4:52] <xrq> sheldor: were you asking what the command is?
[4:52] <sheldor> yes xrq
[4:53] <xrq> it's sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade;
[4:53] <xrq> oops. without the ;
[4:53] <xrq> that will update your system once
[4:53] <sheldor> xrq: but i dont want upgrading
[4:53] <xrq> that won't upgrade unless you are actively making changes to do so
[4:54] <sheldor> then why do i have to dist-upgrade in the first place?
[4:54] <xrq> you would have to change wheezy to sid in your sources.list to do an upgrade like you suggest
[4:54] <xrq> which I don't advise
[4:54] <sheldor> okay
[4:54] <sheldor> but why do i have to dist-upgrade in the first place?
[4:54] <xrq> dist-upgrade will simply apply the latest updates
[4:55] <sheldor> isnt that what apt-get update does
[4:55] <xrq> that's just what they decided to name it
[4:55] <xrq> no
[4:55] <sney> dist-upgrade will also install packages that might be held back, like kernels or anything that removes other packages when it installs
[4:55] <sheldor> what does apt-get update do then
[4:55] <sheldor> wow what a stupid naming scheme
[4:55] <sney> apt-get update updates the list of packages from the repository
[4:56] <sheldor> i see
[4:56] <sheldor> very inconsistently named
[4:56] <xrq> apt-get update brings the package system itself up to date. the actual software is update with dist-upgrade
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[4:57] <sney> aptitude is a little more sensible about it, with aptitude update, aptitude safe-upgrade and aptitude full-upgrade. I guess. they're just technical terms and you get used to them
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[4:57] <sheldor> okay
[4:57] <xrq> "package system" being a mapping of what you have installed, what servers updates are on, and much more
[4:57] <sheldor> xrq: and id have to cron that manually?
[4:57] <sheldor> or is there some better automation mechanism
[4:58] <xrq> there should be documentation on making it automatic
[4:58] <sheldor> without cron?
[4:59] <xrq> I'm not sure if they use cron or not
[4:59] <sheldor> thanks
[4:59] <sheldor> how do i read mail on the rpi btw?
[4:59] <sheldor> when the system says i have new mail
[5:00] <sheldor> "mail" doesnt exist
[5:02] <xrq> you would need to pick and install a mail program
[5:03] <sheldor> okay
[5:03] <sheldor> xrq: i dont mean internet mail though
[5:03] <sheldor> xrq: just the /var/mail mail
[5:04] <sheldor> i dont know how to make the system understand i read it
[5:04] <sheldor> if i open /var/mail/pi in vim then it still prints the message
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[5:05] <xrq> sheldor: maybe it will go away if you view it with alpine
[5:05] <sheldor> command not found
[5:05] <xrq> you have to install it
[5:06] <sheldor> so i have to first install something to view system provided mail
[5:06] <sheldor> weird
[5:06] <xrq> yeah, all of debian won't fit on SD cards
[5:06] <sheldor> k
[5:06] <xrq> maybe the 32GB but that would be a huge download
[5:06] <sheldor> so they put just one half of the mail system in the base
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[5:09] <xrq> not even half. sendmail isn't in rasbpi either
[5:09] <sheldor> xrq: i dont mean internet mail
[5:09] <sheldor> just the stuff that puts stuff into /var/mail
[5:09] <sheldor> like cron does
[5:09] <sheldor> if something fails
[5:10] <xrq> right
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[7:56] <vagrantc> eesh. i should've been using ccache for all those kernel rebuilds...
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[9:56] <astran> hello I installed raspbian with installer, then xfce but I can't write on the terminal emulator, do I have to reinstall ?
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[12:17] <astran> is there a howto page to install correctly xfce4 on the raspbian ?
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[12:48] <|Jeroen|> where there is a will there is a way astran
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[12:54] <fayimora> Hey guys, I'm trying to install proftpd but i keep getting this error -> "Could not resolve 'mirroedirector.raspbian.org'"
[12:58] <plugwash> did you make a typo or does your sources.list actually contain mirroedirector ?
[12:59] <fayimora> plugwash: it's a typo
[12:59] <fayimora> sorry
[13:00] <plugwash> so it's actually mirrordirector.raspbian.org that won't resolve on your pi?
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[13:04] <fayimora> plugwash: yes but nvm thanks.. My internet connection was disconnected :(
[13:05] <deam> I am trying to download the Hexxeh image but my archive keeps getting corrupted. Anyone has a mirror?
[13:06] <plugwash> Not that i'm aware of, the hexxeh images are getting rather old now anyway
[13:07] <deam> any other option for a minimal image then?
[13:07] <deam> the official RPI is really bloated
[13:10] <plugwash> Not sure, there are a number of images posted on the forums but most of them are going about it the wrong way
[13:11] <plugwash> trying to strip the foundation image rather than build a minimal one from the ground up
[13:11] <plugwash> the scripts friggle uses to create the foundation images are available at https://github.com/asb/spindle and I belive they have some capability for creating more minimal images
[13:11] <deam> the latter sounds nasty
[13:12] <deam> ok, let me check that out
[13:12] <plugwash> there is also a hacked up version of the debian installer reffered to as the "raspbian installer" available that can be used
[13:14] <Hexxeh> debootstrapping and then running rpi-update is enough to give you a bootable minimal image
[13:14] <Hexxeh> you can technically strip things down a little more manually from there, but i've not tried it personally
[13:15] <deam> so thats stage2?
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[13:16] <deam> wouldn't downloading your image, running rpi-update give me the same result Hexxeh?
[13:16] <Hexxeh> nope
[13:17] <Hexxeh> you'd also need to run apt-get update and apt-get upgrade
[13:18] <deam> well thats probably less effort then building my own from scratch..
[13:18] <maswan> can someone explain to me why some extra installed packages in the image is such a bad thing?
[13:19] <maswan> I understand not wanting unnecessary processes running, etc
[13:19] <plugwash> longer update times and larger SD card size requirements spring to mind
[13:20] <|Jeroen|> still if you have the same procs running the speed schoold be the same
[13:20] <deam> I am building a image for my home automation system which will do a lot of storage as well, any extra space is more then welcome..
[13:20] * maswan nods
[13:20] <deam> and my software is just using Python, I don't need all the X crap etc
[13:20] <maswan> I'm just not used to thinking a few hundred megs being a significant ammount of storage
[13:21] <deam> well, the default image is like 1.6GB nowadays?
[13:21] <maswan> but debootstrap is a good start for minimal
[13:22] <maswan> yeah
[13:23] <|Jeroen|> i use a emdebian for my home automation, its quite small
[13:23] <|Jeroen|> wel its not on a pi but on a sbc6410
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[13:27] <deam> going to give spindle a go anyways, thanks!
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[13:58] <gnarface> debian base is like 380mb for 32-bit and 450ish for 64-bit
[13:59] <gnarface> i would imagine raspbian to be close to the 32-bit x86 size, maybe even less actually
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[14:03] * CyberJacob (~CyberJaco@host-78-147-127-58.as13285.net) has joined #raspbian
[14:03] <CyberJacob> Hi Guys
[14:04] <CyberJacob> I'm having a rather strange issue with audio on my Pi
[14:04] <CyberJacob> after a reboot, I can play audio for 20 seconds
[14:04] <CyberJacob> but after that I don't get any output
[14:04] <CyberJacob> any ideas?
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[14:15] <deam> what host OS is best to use with Spindle? I've tried debian wheezy but I am running into all kinds of errors during setup. I am assuming he used Debian as host OS but is that correct?
[14:20] <deam> hmm
[14:21] * farresito (47eb6c27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.235.108.39) has joined #raspbian
[14:21] * zaphee (~user@2a01:e35:2e82:4050:bced:24b8:e1c:d0fd) has joined #raspbian
[14:26] <deam> aha, seems the mirror I was using was in a update process :|
[14:31] <farresito> When formatting the SD for Raspbian, do I need any boot flag or anything? What do you guys recommend me, FAT32 or ext2?
[14:34] <deam> just write the entire image and you shouldn't need to bother about such things
[14:37] <farresito> The SD came preinstalled with Debian 6, but I wanted Raspbian. The thing is when I tried to mount it, I got the following message: "mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/mmcblk0, missing codepage or helper program, or other error In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try dmesg | tail or so", so I decided to reformat it.
[14:39] <CyberJacob> farresito: dd if=/path/to/raspbian.img of=/dev/disk
[14:40] <farresito> CyberJacob: Thank you. Right now I have all the space as 'unallocated', so I should choose a filesystem, I guess.
[14:40] <CyberJacob> just write the entire img file to your SD card
[14:40] <CyberJacob> it includes all of the partitions, file system types, etc
[14:41] <CyberJacob> farresito: are you using windows or linux?
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[14:45] <farresito_> CyberJacob: Thank you. Did work perfectly.
[14:45] <CyberJacob> farresito_: no problem
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[15:14] <CyberJacob> anybody have any ideas about my audio problem?
[15:16] * farresito_ (47eb6c27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.235.108.39) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
[15:16] <PhotoJim> CyberJacob: HDMI audio or analog? and whichever one works, have you tried the other?
[15:17] <CyberJacob> Analogue audio
[15:17] <CyberJacob> I haven't tried the other yet, gimmie a sec
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[15:24] <CyberJacob> PhotoJim: I don't get any audio at all over HDMI
[15:24] <CyberJacob> PhotoJim: alsamixer doesn't freeze though
[15:24] <PhotoJim> you've tried to increase the volume in alsamixer I assume?
[15:25] <CyberJacob> yeah
[15:25] * simone__ (~simone@host38-95-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[15:25] <CyberJacob> and on the TV
[15:25] <CyberJacob> I've also got hdmi_drive=2 in my config.txt
[15:25] <PhotoJim> hmm, not sure. weird that you'd get audio for a bit and then it would disappear.
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[15:26] <PhotoJim> hdmi_drive=2 would force audio to HDMI... you didn't have that set when you were trying to use analog audio did you?
[15:27] <CyberJacob> no, I didn't
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[15:27] <PhotoJim> not sure
[15:27] <CyberJacob> Just added it and rebooted it to try and get HDMI audio working
[15:27] <PhotoJim> I have two Pis... both hooked up via HDMI. one works perfectly, the other gives me no audio
[15:28] <PhotoJim> I haven't figured out the solution to unit #2... I intend to swap locations and see if it's the Pi that's the issue or the installation location
[15:28] <CyberJacob> I've had issues with pulse audio before
[15:28] * trijntje (~quassel@ubuntu/member/trijntje) has joined #raspbian
[15:28] <CyberJacob> I had to completely uninstall it to get any audio on a different Pi
[15:29] <PhotoJim> these were identical installations... same raspbian image. and the Pi units came in the same shipment so the hardware should be identical.
[15:29] <PhotoJim> haven't ruled out a hardware defect though.
[15:29] <CyberJacob> I might try with the hdmi_drive=2 and analogue outputs...
[15:30] <CyberJacob> that sounds very strange if they should be identicle
[15:30] <CyberJacob> *identical
[15:31] <PhotoJim> yes
[15:32] <PhotoJim> which makes me wonder if it's some issue with my HDMI cable or my A/V receiver in that room... I haven't yet tested the analog output
[15:32] <PhotoJim> I should test that today
[15:32] <PhotoJim> it hasn't been a high priority :)
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[15:51] <bacilla> could someone provide some pointers for 'Processing triggers for man-db ... gdbm fatal: read error'
[15:52] <bacilla> my google-fu powers have depleted..
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[15:59] <CyberJacob> I fixed the audio!
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[16:00] <gnarface> magic plug lubricant?
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[17:32] <sheldor> does having both apache and nginx installed cause problems?
[17:35] <atouk> without having done it, i'd say probobly
[17:36] <atouk> fighting over resources,etc. maybe if you hand tune them to different ports, etc you could make it work
[17:37] <sheldor> atouk: i dont even want to run them at the same time, just want to have them installed
[17:37] <sheldor> i also think it should not cause problems
[17:37] <sheldor> but i saw a script on the web that first apt-get remove'd apache2 before installing nginx
[17:37] <sheldor> without even asking
[17:38] <sheldor> so i thought maybe this is a requirement
[17:39] <atouk> that's like having your second wife move in before getting rid of the first one. of course she's going to get rid of the old one first
[17:40] <sheldor> rofl
[17:40] <sheldor> haha
[17:40] <sheldor> without even asking
[17:41] <sheldor> atouk: what if you plan to fuck both wives in the future?
[17:41] <sheldor> possible even at the same time
[17:42] <atouk> then like having both apache and nginx installed at the same time. you'r just asking for problems.
[17:45] <sheldor> atouk: apparently so
[17:45] <sheldor> they also told me in #nginx that they conflict on debians in particlar
[17:45] <sheldor> due to the package manager or something
[17:45] <sheldor> weird
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[20:31] <steven123494> exit
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[23:24] <plugwash> vagrantc, you arround?
[23:25] * sheldor (~sheldor@gateway/tor-sasl/pushkin) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[23:25] <vagrantc> plugwash: ish
[23:26] <plugwash> do you know how the list of what udebs to build for what kernel flavour is determined?
[23:28] * Lydia_K (~Lydia@li328-145.members.linode.com) has joined #raspbian
[23:29] <Lydia_K> Anyone else have a problem getting fluxbox to start?
[23:30] <vagrantc> plugwash: not really. i honestly just copied the mx5 stuff in debian/somedir
[23:30] <vagrantc> plugwash: maybe debian/installer ?
[23:30] <vagrantc> plugwash: sorry, i don't remember off the top of my head
[23:31] <vagrantc> ah, i can look it up
[23:32] <Lydia_K> nevermind *facepalms* it was just a typo.
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[23:34] <plugwash> i've looked in debian/installer and i've figured out how to change what is in the udebs
[23:34] <vagrantc> plugwash: yup, debian/installer/armhf/kernel-versions and debian/installer/armhf/modules/
[23:35] <plugwash> which I have failed figure out is how to change which udebs are built
[23:35] <vagrantc> i would guess just removing some of the modules/* entries
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[23:36] * plugwash assumed if you did that it would just try to use the generic definitions
[23:36] * plugwash tries anyway
[23:37] <vagrantc> plugwash: i.e. ext4 support was builtin, but i later noticed the ext4 file was there still.
[23:38] <vagrantc> plugwash: seemed to just produce an empty ext4-modules udeb.
[23:39] <plugwash> it didn't for me, for me it errored out
[23:39] <vagrantc> odd.
[23:39] <plugwash> (well it built the debs but errored out when building the udebs)
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[23:57] <Phonestar> hi
These logs were automatically created by RaspbianLogBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.