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[7:49] <wiiguy> hello, how can i format my ntfs hdd and mount it so that everyone can read every file even the files that are made by the user pi(and read by anonymous) ?
[7:50] <wiiguy> format iut as ext3 or ext4
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[8:55] <ragedragon> Hello,
[8:56] <ragedragon> do you know please if a deb is exist for xbmc to avoid installing dev packages and compilation?
[8:56] <ragedragon> i have less than 1Go free on the SD card...
[9:02] <nullie> rasp-test, google-fu http://michael.gorven.za.net/raspberrypi/xbmc
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[9:04] <ragedragon> thx a lot nullie
[9:04] <nullie> damn
[9:04] <nullie> ragedragon, ^^^
[9:04] <nullie> rasp-test, sorry
[9:04] <ragedragon> no prob
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[9:25] <nullie> rasp-test, sorry
[9:25] <nullie> oops
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[9:51] <ragedragon> nullie: is you already installed, how many CPU consumption do you have please at idle when xbmc starts?
[9:51] <ragedragon> i have 92% for xbmc bin in idle....
[9:51] <ragedragon> strange
[9:52] <ragedragon> cpu freq @ 900Mhz
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[10:02] <Foxdie> Hi folks, could I get a little help compiling the Raspbian kernel please/
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[10:02] <Foxdie> I'm trying to compile 3.6, I've done a git clone (and checked submodules, if any, were pulled too), but I get an error when trying to build it;
[10:03] <Foxdie> "net/ipv4/netfilter/ipt_ECN.c:20:42: fatal error: linux/netfilter_ipv4/ipt_ECN.h: No such file or directory"
[10:03] <Foxdie> I've googled this and there's intermittent information but nothing thats helped me resolve the issue
[10:22] <gnarface> Foxdie: have you ever built a kernel on a debian derivative before? all the compilation tools and headers are in separate packages from the runtime binaries. did you run something like "apt-get build-dep linux-image-3.10-whatever"
[10:22] <gnarface> Foxdie: ?
[10:22] <Foxdie> gnarface: Hi there. I haven't built one in recent years, no.
[10:22] <Foxdie> I'll try installing those packages now to see if that helps.
[10:23] <gnarface> Foxdie: i've not yet built a raspbian kernel so there may be other issues, but you definitely need all the appropriate *-dev packages (containing the header files for compiling the package they go with) as well as a bunch of gcc toolchain stuff
[10:23] <gnarface> Foxdie: in *theory* the "apt-get build-dep [package name]" command will cover them all for you
[10:23] <gnarface> but i've noticed occasionally something is missing
[10:23] <gnarface> and has to be installed by hand
[10:24] <gnarface> also its going to take a painfully long time
[10:24] <Foxdie> build-up didn't match anything, "linux-image-rpi" seems to be installing quite a few packages (meta package)
[10:24] <gnarface> i'm led to believe most people compile stuff in a qemu virtual server
[10:24] <Foxdie> build-up? DYAC. build-dep :)
[10:25] <Foxdie> oh its a apt command.
[10:25] <Foxdie> Excuse me whilst I reacquaint myself with a brick wall ;)
[10:25] <gnarface> hah just read the apt manpage and most things become clear
[10:25] <gnarface> er, apt-get manpage
[10:25] <gnarface> some people like aptitude better because it thinks for you a bit
[10:25] <gnarface> but i find it to be slow and annoying
[10:28] <Foxdie> I've been using apt-get for too long, it's engrained in my fingers muscle-memory :)
[10:30] <Foxdie> Attempting another build now, thanks gnarface
[10:30] <gnarface> no problem
[10:30] <gnarface> good luck...
[10:31] <Foxdie> If you or anyone else here has access to http://elinux.org/RPi_Kernel_Compilation it may be worth updating with that information
[10:33] <Foxdie> Bah, same error.
[10:33] <Foxdie> Where's the hammer..
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[11:01] <gnarface> Foxdie: sorry i got nothing. plugwash would be the guy to ask, when he's around.
[11:02] <gnarface> Foxdie: i believe people succeed at this, but i always seem to be sleeping when they find out what the tricks are.
[11:02] <Foxdie> :D
[11:03] <Foxdie> Where abouts you from?
[11:04] <gnarface> its not about where i'm from, its about how little self-discipline i have
[11:04] <gnarface> i'm often sleeping during business hours :)
[11:08] <Foxdie> Night owl then, heh :)
[11:11] <gnarface> yea
[11:11] <gnarface> 4am here and i just woke up 2 hours ago
[11:12] <gnarface> was up too many days straight playing with a new network connection
[11:13] <Foxdie> Super fast?
[11:13] <Foxdie> Woo. My Pi has stopped responding.
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[11:33] <Foxdie> Grr. Still got the same error after installing linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi and linux-headers-3.6-trunk-rpi
[11:33] * nils_2_ is now known as nils_2
[11:35] <Foxdie> trying the -all package
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[11:48] <Foxdie> Still no-go.
[11:49] <Foxdie> gnarface: When you mentioned build-dep earlier, you meant something like this? "sudo apt-get build-dep linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi"
[11:49] <Foxdie> If I run that, I get "E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list"
[11:49] <gnarface> oh
[11:49] <gnarface> you're missing important lines then
[11:49] <gnarface> you don't even have the kernel source if you don't have those lines
[11:49] <Foxdie> my /etc/apt/sources.list only has one line;
[11:50] <Foxdie> "deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ wheezy main contrib non-free rpi"
[11:50] <gnarface> oy
[11:50] <gnarface> that's aproblem
[11:50] <gnarface> hang on i'll boot my pi so i can paste mine for you
[11:50] <Foxdie> Thanks :)
[11:56] * LucasCozy (~LucasCozy@unaffiliated/lucascozy) Quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[11:59] <hifi> Foxdie: you *really* need to rebuild the kernel?
[11:59] <hifi> plugwash told me the build process and it requires some manual intervention, I wouldn't recommend trying it
[12:00] <hifi> when I iterated some 3.6 issues with him to get the 3.6 kernel into reasonable state it took him a whole night to recompile it, usually days when he was busy
[12:01] <Foxdie> hifi: Yes, I'm trying to build a driver for a hardware MPEG4 encoder
[12:01] <hifi> you don't need to build the whole kernel to build a single driver, usually
[12:01] <hifi> and isn't almost all *included* drivers built anyway in the raspbian kernel?
[12:01] <hifi> or is your encoder driver in staging or something
[12:02] <hifi> at any rate install the source package for the kernel and try adding some patches to it and rebuilt that
[12:03] <hifi> duplicate your 'deb' line as 'deb-src'
[12:03] <hifi> for the source packages
[12:03] <hifi> depending where you got your raspbian image the default apt sources vary
[12:04] <Foxdie> The encoder is an old battle-axe based around the WIS GO7007 encoder
[12:04] <Foxdie> The chances of it having a kernel module prebuilt is quite unlikely
[12:04] <hifi> did you check
[12:04] <Foxdie> Admittedly not… :)
[12:05] <hifi> afaik the raspbian kernel is as close to debian kernel as possible
[12:05] <hifi> so if on debian you have the driver you should have it on raspbian
[12:05] <Foxdie> I don't think it comes with Debian either
[12:06] <Foxdie> http://home.comcast.net/~bender647/go7007/ is what i'm working on
[12:06] <hifi> but for your kernel source issue add the deb-src line and then install the kernel source package
[12:06] <hifi> then you should have something that is probably buildable on the pi
[12:07] <hifi> though it seems you just need the kernel headers to build that driver module
[12:07] <hifi> instead of the whole kernel source which would take a long time to build on the pi
[12:08] <Foxdie> The instructions stated "you need a fully-built kernel"
[12:08] <Foxdie> If I can get away with headers, perfect
[12:08] <hifi> usually headers are enough
[12:09] <hifi> and in your case it better be enough or you'll in deep
[12:09] <hifi> you're*
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[12:15] * Foxdie chuckles
[12:15] <Foxdie> Whenever I've built this driver, it's always been "deep"
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[12:21] <Foxdie> okay so build-dep worked
[12:21] <Foxdie> Attempting to build the kernel again
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[12:23] <gnarface> Foxdie: sorry got distracted then ran into a wifi problem
[12:23] <gnarface> Foxdie: still trying to figure my way a new router
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[12:23] <gnarface> Foxdie: its working now though?
[12:25] <Foxdie> Sadly not
[12:25] <Foxdie> Still the same error
[12:25] <Foxdie> net/ipv4/netfilter/ipt_ECN.c:20:42: fatal error: linux/netfilter_ipv4/ipt_ECN.h: No such file or directory
[12:27] <gnarface> Foxdie: which raspbian install is this that you're trying on? did you download a pre-installed image from raspberrypi.org or did you follow these instructions? http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianInstaller
[12:28] <Foxdie> I used an .img file, writing it with dd
[12:28] <Foxdie> 2013-07-26-wheezy-raspbian.img
[12:32] <gnarface> before you did any of this, did you do: apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
[12:32] <gnarface> ?
[12:32] <Foxdie> Odd thing is, I can see the file in /usr/src/linux-headers-3.6-trunk-common/include/linux/netfilter_ipv4/ipt_ECN.h
[12:32] <Foxdie> yep I did, first thing after installing the image
[12:32] <Foxdie> (well second, first was to configure it and expand the FS)
[12:32] <gnarface> i'm not sure but it may have issues
[12:32] <gnarface> they add non-stock stuff to it
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[12:33] <Foxdie> Its also in ./include/linux/netfilter_ipv4/ipt_ecn.h in my build folder, just not capitalised
[12:34] <Foxdie> Made a duplicate of it, will see what happens
[12:34] <gnarface> there may be a version issue still
[12:35] <gnarface> did you do another update && upgrade after adding the deb-src line?
[12:35] <Foxdie> update yes, upgrade no
[12:35] <gnarface> try it
[12:35] <gnarface> maybe your src packages are out of date?
[12:35] <gnarface> no, i guess that probably wouldn't actually do anything
[12:35] <gnarface> you'd have to re-get the src
[12:36] <gnarface> are you using a src package for the kernel, or did you just download the vanilla src from kernel.org?
[12:36] * Lupinedk is now known as lupinedk
[12:37] <Foxdie> It was a git clone from https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux
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[12:37] <Foxdie> branch rpi-3.6.y
[12:37] <hifi> use the source package
[12:37] <hifi> that's completely unsupported to use the foundation source
[12:38] <Foxdie> Hmm, can actually see the file is uncapitalised in https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux/tree/rpi-3.6.y/include/linux/netfilter_ipv4
[12:38] <Foxdie> So its not me. Phew.
[12:38] <hifi> you are now mixing raspbian kernel headers and the foundation kernel source
[12:39] <Foxdie> What should I do?
[12:39] <hifi> install the source package
[12:39] <hifi> apt-get source linux-image-3.6-trunk
[12:39] <hifi> or something
[12:40] <hifi> that'll just download the sources
[12:41] <gnarface> Foxdie: i had to give up and plug in an ethernet cable. i must have broke my wifi. here is my /etc/apt/sources.list file: http://paste.debian.net/28997/
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[12:42] <Foxdie> gnarface: thanks
[12:42] <Foxdie> hifi, yep I already have that
[12:42] <Foxdie> completely untouched though
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[12:42] <hifi> the proper sources, right?
[12:43] <hifi> in pretty world, you would extract the packages, extract the debian patches, add your own patches to debian patches and then rebuild the package
[12:43] <Foxdie> sudo apt-get install linux-headers-3.6-trunk-all
[12:43] <gnarface> Foxdie: i also recently ran rpi-update so i have whatever new firmware was up a couple days ago - i doubt that will affect your compiling though
[12:43] <Foxdie> sudo apt-get build-dep linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi
[12:43] <hifi> Foxdie: did you use the 'source' command to download the kernel source or not?
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[12:44] <hifi> apt-get source linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi
[12:44] <Foxdie> In /usr/src I now have http://paste.debian.net/29004/
[12:45] <hifi> nope, the 'source' command should download the source files to your current directory IIRC
[12:45] <hifi> you have old 3.2 kernel source there
[12:45] <Foxdie> Yeah I spotted that, however the current running kernel appears to be 3.6.11
[12:46] <hifi> you're also using a different kernel than the raspbian kernel
[12:46] <hifi> what you're actually running is the foundation kernel that should match the github sources you downloaded
[12:46] <hifi> but building the foundation kernel is unsupported anyway
[12:46] <Foxdie> I haven't installed any kernels yet
[12:46] <hifi> it defaults to foundation kernel
[12:46] <Foxdie> This is a .img install
[12:46] <Foxdie> Ah.
[12:47] <hifi> which is another mess
[12:47] <Foxdie> so I've run; sudo apt-get source linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi
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[12:47] <Foxdie> Picking 'linux-3.6' as source package instead of 'linux-image-3.6-trunk-rpi'
[12:47] <Foxdie> NOTICE: 'linux-3.6' packaging is maintained in the 'Svn' version control system at:
[12:47] <Foxdie> svn://svn.debian.org/svn/kernel/dists/trunk/linux/
[12:47] <Foxdie> Has that defaulted to the foundation somehow?
[12:47] <hifi> nope
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[12:48] <hifi> though I'm not sure if it did download any of the pi patches
[12:50] <Foxdie> This is the output thus far; http://paste.debian.net/29005/
[12:51] <hifi> looks legit
[12:52] <Foxdie> Yay, lots of; dpkg-source: info: applying rpi/rpi_101_f5b930be71d6de64c3264b2f9eff4a4079d50c14.patch
[12:55] <hifi> yeah, after everything you need to patch your own stuff, instruct dpkg to rebuild the package and cross your fingers
[12:57] <hifi> and if it doesn't barf immediately go to sleep
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[13:16] <Foxdie> okay its finished patching
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[13:16] <Foxdie> How would I instruct it to do that?
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[13:17] <gnarface> maybe dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc
[13:17] <gnarface> ?
[13:17] <gnarface> if its like regular deb packages
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[13:29] <Foxdie> Seems to be building with make now
[13:30] <Foxdie> (imported the old .config file first, it asked a couple of questions for new options etc)
[13:30] <gnarface> that sounds promising
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[13:31] <gnarface> i hope you shut off everything you're not using
[13:31] <gnarface> its gonna take a LOOOOONG time
[13:32] <Foxdie> Running the compile in screen
[13:32] <Foxdie> Installed sendmail before I did all this, it'll email me when its either failed or finished
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[13:40] <Foxdie> gnarface and hifi, really appreciate the help, thank you :)
[13:41] <gnarface> no problem
[13:41] <gnarface> not sure i helped much
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[13:45] <Foxdie> Nah you did. Second head always helps :)
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[13:48] <Foxdie> I'm gonna be waiting for this for a long time, I'm gonna jump off IRC, many thanks once again :)
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[15:05] <and0r> hey
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[15:06] <and0r> anyone here?
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[15:06] <gnarface> 'sup and0r
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[15:06] <and0r> sup breh
[15:06] <gnarface> just me, but i'm craaaaazzy
[15:07] <and0r> ok
[15:07] <and0r> anyone wanna help with my raspbian installation?
[15:08] <and0r> NO?
[15:09] <gnarface> http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianInstaller
[15:09] <gnarface> and0r: are you following these directions?
[15:09] <and0r> yes, obviously
[15:10] <gnarface> no, actually that isn't obvious
[15:10] <gnarface> many people refer to the pre-installed image from raspberrypi.org
[15:10] <gnarface> which is not the same thing
[15:10] <and0r> i guess for some it would be. but not for you? :)
[15:10] <gnarface> not for anyone who is trying to actually figure out how to install it actually
[15:10] <and0r> you used to word actually twice
[15:10] <and0r> this is redundant
[15:11] <gnarface> what exactly is the problem you're having?
[15:11] <and0r> ok im trolling
[15:11] <and0r> chill
[15:11] <and0r> ahem
[15:14] <and0r> yeah so anyway prepping the SD during install/configuring disks; doesnt involve more than setting the mountpoint as /rpiboot? with default options + under fat32 and bootable?
[15:16] <gnarface> uh... no actually I think you need all 3 partitions shown in that example, and they need to exist in that order (/boot, swap, /)
[15:16] <gnarface> it may even be picky about the size of /boot and swap
[15:16] <gnarface> (but / just needs to be "big enough")
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[15:16] <and0r> you really need a swap?
[15:17] <gnarface> but yes, you're right that /boot (which it will rename from /rpiboot) needs to be fat32 and bootable
[15:17] <gnarface> i think the installer assumes it will be there and borks if not
[15:17] <gnarface> also i would strongly require swap
[15:17] <gnarface> i mean recommend swap
[15:18] <gnarface> i mean, after install i'm sure you can just disable it
[15:18] <gnarface> don't mount it
[15:18] <gnarface> or swapoff
[15:18] <gnarface> whatever
[15:18] <and0r> ok... nother problem
[15:18] <and0r> kernal panic
[15:18] <gnarface> but under default configurations there ARE things that will break with so little ram if you have no swap
[15:18] <gnarface> apt-get of a really large set of packages comes to mind
[15:18] <gnarface> amongst other things
[15:18] <and0r> yeah apt-get is gnarly
[15:19] <and0r> anyway
[15:19] <and0r> the kernel panic
[15:19] <gnarface> but there are kernel parameters to tune the "swappiness" of the system anyway so if your reasoning is you don't want it to swap there are much better (stabler) ways to do it than by just eliminating the swap partition
[15:19] <gnarface> maybe it DOES actually need it, if you're getting kernel panics
[15:19] <gnarface> i'm not getting kernel panics ...
[15:19] <and0r> unable to mount root fs
[15:20] <gnarface> its ext3 right?
[15:20] <and0r> i think its my hdd enclouser
[15:20] * Lupinedk is now known as lupinedk
[15:20] <and0r> it was ext4
[15:20] <gnarface> keep in mind many filesystems that are in the vanilla kernel are missing from the raspbian kernel
[15:20] <and0r> ah
[15:20] <and0r> go on...
[15:20] <gnarface> ext4 should work but the installer might require it to be ext3
[15:20] <gnarface> and then you might need to update to a current version
[15:20] <and0r> well it completes install with ext4
[15:20] <and0r> go on...
[15:21] <gnarface> plus uh... if you never have (or if its been a while) you should also run rpi-update after install to get the latest firmware
[15:21] <and0r> anyway i had a swap and all that jazz when i got kernel panic
[15:21] <gnarface> and one last thing; there is a list here of known good/bad cards by make&model. people have associated kernel panics with certain ones: http://elinux.org/RPi_SD_cards
[15:22] <gnarface> generally most stuff works if its operating in spec though i think
[15:22] <and0r> installing root on usb hdd
[15:22] * \\Mr_C\\ (mrc@66-168-168-33.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com) Quit ()
[15:22] <gnarface> and also i think that if you can get the latest firmware installed, you may have better luck than people on that list
[15:22] <gnarface> (some of those entries are from when the pi was very new)
[15:23] <and0r> yes i figured
[15:23] <gnarface> also you should probably try installing root on the sd card then moving it to your usb hdd after the fact
[15:23] <gnarface> that would be much easier
[15:23] <gnarface> that may be part of your issue...
[15:23] <gnarface> or did you get a complete install, and are now trying to move it and that's the problem you're having?
[15:23] <and0r> can you partition a SD?
[15:23] <gnarface> yes, you can partition an SD card its just not required for most of the electronics they are sold for
[15:23] <and0r> i guess you can
[15:25] <gnarface> its perfectly normal although with certain cheap SD card readers (mostly the non-branded chineese ones) i've had confusing behavior of the way their device nodes are represented in /dev trick me into nesting partitions instead of partitioning the device correctly
[15:25] * blkhawk is now known as blkaway
[15:28] <and0r> i see my sd boots the kernel but damages the filesystem
[15:28] <and0r> probably a superblock'
[15:28] <gnarface> well it tries to shuffle the partitions around during the installation process
[15:29] <gnarface> so from only what you've told me it might just be your partitioning
[15:29] <and0r> only use sd as rpiboot
[15:29] <and0r> rest is on ext4 hdd
[15:29] <gnarface> yea but did you move it there after a successful install, or did your install fail because you assumed it would be able to install to anything?
[15:30] <gnarface> it really may be pickier about the initial partitioning set up being like that example than you think
[15:30] <gnarface> i know you can more easily move / afterwards
[15:30] <and0r> no, just mounted sd as rpi boot under fat32 - root and swap on ext4 hdd
[15:31] <and0r> */rpiboot
[15:32] <and0r> so mount EVERYTHING on sd, then move to hdd after install?
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[15:32] <gnarface> yes because it does something weird to them first
[15:32] <gnarface> and if they aren't where it expects them to be it will choke
[15:33] <and0r> ok, so how i would i update firmware before install?
[15:33] <gnarface> uh, i'm afraid you'll probably have to do that after install
[15:33] <and0r> ok, using ext2 on sd
[15:34] <and0r> does rpiboot need to be fat32?
[15:34] <gnarface> yes
[15:34] <and0r> so how would i move root over to hdd
[15:35] <and0r> linux noob here
[15:35] <gnarface> probably also its safest to try ext3
[15:35] <gnarface> i installed with ext3 and upgraded it to ext4 afterwards
[15:35] <and0r> really?
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[15:35] <gnarface> yes, really. after install is finished, you can simply copy / over to your external harddrive and alter your /etc/fstab to point to it
[15:36] <gnarface> linux reads the /etc/fstab on boot to decide what to mount
[15:36] <and0r> okay sounds fair
[15:36] <and0r> i figured
[15:36] <and0r> this will be a totally headless install
[15:36] <gnarface> the problem as i understand it is that during the install, raspbian renames them
[15:36] <and0r> renames to what?
[15:37] <and0r> shit
[15:37] <gnarface> /dev/mmcblk0p1, /dev/mmcblk0p2, etc
[15:37] <and0r> oh
[15:38] <gnarface> its advised you use the UUID in the fstab though
[15:38] <gnarface> because the UUID won't change unless the filesystem changes
[15:39] <and0r> is there a special syntac when using a UUID, i dont even know what fstab looks like
[15:39] <and0r> syntax*
[15:39] <and0r> jesus christ nevermind
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[15:41] <and0r> so whats the deal /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /etc/fstab
[15:41] <and0r> whats the difference
[15:43] * blkaway is now known as blkhawk
[15:44] <and0r> ok, thanks for the help
[15:48] <gnarface> and0r: the best way to learn about /etc/fstab is look at your own as example after the install, and run "man fstab" to read about it
[15:48] <and0r> okay
[15:49] <gnarface> and0r: /dev/ is the directory that contains files that represent devices. this is the closest thing you're gonna get to a windows registry. /etc is where your programs store all their configs, usually as text files meant to be read and hand-edited, but still updatable by scripts.
[15:50] <and0r> wat is windows? ii come from templeOS
[15:51] <and0r> ;)
[15:52] <gnarface> ... whatever templeos is
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[15:53] <gnarface> anyway to find out the uuid of any given volume: ls -l /dev/disk/by-uuid
[15:53] <gnarface> but remember those numbers will change if you change the partition table or reformat
[15:54] <and0r> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J05MzICZsIs
[15:54] <gnarface> and0r: i'm not gonna look at that. but here is my fstab as an example: http://paste.debian.net/29074/
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[15:56] <and0r> i see
[15:57] <and0r> thanks
[16:01] <and0r> how large should rpiboot be?
[16:02] <gnarface> 75MB seems to be more than enough
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[16:08] <gnarface> and0r: http://paste.debian.net/29082/
[16:09] <gnarface> and0r: as you can see it uses less than 20MB of my /boot partition
[16:09] <and0r> yeah its all auto configured
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[16:09] <and0r> why wont you click on my youtube link, bro?
[16:10] <gnarface> just not interested in advertising at the moment
[16:11] <gnarface> you didn't even say what it was anyway
[16:11] <gnarface> your favorite music video or something?
[16:11] <gnarface> i can link random youtube shit too
[16:11] <gnarface> will you click on it?
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[16:12] <gnarface> this is after all #raspbian not #showmekanyewestslatesthitvideo
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[16:14] <and0r> its a video of temple os
[16:14] <and0r> how is this not interesting to you?
[16:15] <gnarface> oh, well at least it was on-topic
[16:16] <gnarface> and0r: http://www.templeos.org/?
[16:16] <and0r> yeah but check out the video dawg
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[16:29] <gnarface> and0r: maybe i will, if you can convince me its for real
[16:30] <gnarface> and0r: any luck with your new partition layout?
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[17:29] <and0r> still going...
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[19:41] <plugwash> anyone got any reccomendations on software for system status graphing?
[19:41] <plugwash> currently i'm using mrtg but I don't really like it
[19:43] <gnarface> munin is good
[19:43] <gnarface> i like munin
[19:43] <gnarface> the plugins can be of mixed quality though
[19:43] <gnarface> i've had to fix some of them myself
[19:44] <gnarface> but its easy and fun to extend
[19:44] <gnarface> and its pretty much intractable on the whole 5-minute interval thing
[19:45] <gnarface> if you need some graphing resolution more (or less) granular than 5-minute increments you need another solution
[19:46] <plugwash> hmm
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[19:46] <plugwash> do you have a running example I can look at?
[19:46] <plugwash> and do you have any good tutorials
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[19:49] <gnarface> i got everything from http://munin-monitoring.org/
[19:49] <gnarface> unfortunately you'd need vpn access to see my running instance and i'm not at liberty to give it
[19:49] * blkhawk is now known as blkaway
[19:49] * blkaway is now known as blkhawk
[19:49] <gnarface> i am pretty sure that munin-monitoring.org actually has a running example live somewhere on there
[19:50] <gnarface> if you go to http://munin-monitoring.org/wiki/Documentation and scroll to the bottom where the Plugins section is, there are some HOWTO links that are useful
[19:51] <gnarface> specifically the links under "Handling And Writing Plugins"
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[19:53] <plugwash> http://www.raspbian.org/mrtg/ <-- can it easilly do what we are currently doing with mrtg?
[19:53] <gnarface> plugwash: here, this looks like a decent live example: http://www.hamakor.org.il/munin/hamakor.org.il/tux.hamakor.org.il.html
[19:55] <gnarface> plugwash: oh yea, no problem, its still just a frontend for rrdtool like this appears to be, but you can't easily change the shape of the graphs
[19:55] <gnarface> and you can write plugins in pretty much anything that the shell can execute
[19:56] <plugwash> can it graph disks by name
[19:56] <gnarface> uh... good question
[19:56] <gnarface> what do you mean by name?
[19:56] <gnarface> like 'sda, sdb' ?
[19:56] <plugwash> either device name or mountpoint name is fine.
[19:57] <gnarface> take a look at the example
[19:57] <plugwash> one of the things I really HATE about mrtg is it uses strange numbers whose meaning changes as devices come and go
[19:57] <plugwash> so what you think you are graphing and what you are actually graphing can end up different
[19:58] <gnarface> you mean UUID?
[19:58] <gnarface> or something stranger?
[19:58] <gnarface> i've only ever seen the disk plugins refer to disks by mount point or dev node
[19:58] <gnarface> on munin
[19:59] <plugwash> It seems mrtg uses some kind of snmp IDs
[20:00] <gnarface> oh
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[20:01] <gnarface> yea there are snmp plugins for munin but i'm pretty sure none of the default disk usage and io ones use snmp
[20:02] <plugwash> how does the output work? does it periodically generate static images and html pages?
[20:02] <gnarface> yea
[20:02] <gnarface> you didn't look at the example i linked, did you?
[20:02] <gnarface> 5 minute interval
[20:02] <gnarface> that's pretty much locked down
[20:02] <gnarface> hardcoded into the system
[20:02] <gnarface> well, not exactly true
[20:03] <gnarface> its just a cron job
[20:03] <gnarface> but it sortof relies on that, its not easy to change without messing things up, is what i read
[20:03] <gnarface> i didn't bother trying
[20:04] <gnarface> its not like awstats where there is a cgi mode or anything
[20:04] <gnarface> its just some assorted perl and bash on a timer
[20:04] <gnarface> 100% static html & gif output
[20:05] <gnarface> the plugins communicate by just basically feeding a list of name & value pairs to stdout
[20:05] <gnarface> munin pipes that to rrdtool
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[20:07] <gnarface> you have to write your plugins to answer differently for a single command line parameter config/autoconf but that's about it
[20:07] <gnarface> the thing i liked was there was such a wide assortment of different useful plugins already packaged in debian
[20:07] <gnarface> and most of them even work right
[20:11] <plugwash> it's ok to have client an server on the same box right?
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[20:41] <gnarface> plugwash: yes its ok (and advised) to also run munin-node on the munin server, but not required
[20:42] <gnarface> plugwash: if you only use snmp plugins, then i guess you don't need to run munin-node anywhere else actually.
[20:42] <gnarface> plugwash: but i believe i read somewhere something about how munin was primarily a replacement for snmp, despite also supporting it
[20:43] <plugwash> snmp is an annoying POS as far as i'm concerned
[20:43] <plugwash> so if I can get the functionality without it that would certainly be the preffered option
[20:44] <gnarface> yea you don't need to use any snmp at all if you have munin
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[20:46] <gnarface> the primary functionality of snmp is more or less utterly redundant to munin's core functionality
[20:47] <gnarface> but there are perl objects for snmp if you need to support some snmp-only network device or such
[20:47] <gnarface> some such plugins are included
[20:47] <gnarface> i managed to write a rudimentary one for ejabberd
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[20:47] <gnarface> but there may be better ones in the wild now
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[20:48] <gnarface> that is the only thing i needed snmp for
[20:48] <gnarface> it was more the erlang developer's choice than mine though
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[21:18] * plugwash tries to figure out where munin's output is going............
[21:19] <gnarface> probably like /var/munin or something like that
[21:19] <gnarface> maybe /var/lib/munin
[21:20] <gnarface> i remember having to configure an apache virtualhost manually for it i think
[21:20] <plugwash> the tutorial i'm following says it should be /var/www/munin
[21:20] <plugwash> but that directory doesn't seem to exist
[21:20] <gnarface> yea it wouldn't
[21:21] <gnarface> check in /usr/share/doc/munin* for example configs
[21:21] <plugwash> I see various files in /var/lib/munin but no sign of any html output...................
[21:21] <gnarface> and debian-specific info
[21:21] <gnarface> also, how long was it running?
[21:22] <plugwash> dunno exactly but it should have been more than 5 minuites by now
[21:22] <gnarface> i'm almost certain you have to configure apache first
[21:22] <gnarface> but also note that it can't always do everything on the first pass
[21:23] <plugwash> I realise I have to configure my webserver but first I need to find out where to point the damn thing
[21:24] <plugwash> note: i'm not using apache....................
[21:24] <gnarface> yea the debian package may be a bit different than the wiki says too
[21:24] <plugwash> not using it for this anyway, I will be installing apache later for something else
[21:24] <gnarface> it was a pretty simple setup
[21:28] <gnarface> ah
[21:28] <gnarface> plugwash: found it, its /var/cache/munin/www
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[21:29] <gnarface> plugwash: but i've noticed that occasionally after a fresh install or new configuration changes, it can take 10-15 minutes (basically 2-3 passes) to fully generate/update format changes to the html framework the graphs are in and populate them with actual graphs that contain actual data
[21:30] <gnarface> and some of the plugins, in order to start drawing a line instead of '-nan' they need two sample points
[21:30] <gnarface> so on the first pass that they appear, despite having history, hey won't have valid data
[21:30] <gnarface> ont he second pass they usually clean up
[21:30] <gnarface> unless something is wrong
[21:31] <gnarface> but if there is something wrong there is usually noise about it in one of the logs on the client or server in /var/log/munin
[21:32] <plugwash> Ok well it seems to be at least somewhat working but i'm seeing errors like
[21:32] <plugwash> 2013/08/23 21:00:02 [WARNING] Service bonding_err_bond0 on raspbian.org/127.0.0.1:4949 returned no data for label if_eth1
[21:32] <plugwash> 2013/08/23 21:00:02 [ERROR] In RRD: Error updating /var/lib/munin/bytemark/raspbian.org-bonding_err_bond0-if_eth0-d.rrd: /var/lib/munin/bytemark/raspbian.org-bonding_err_bond0-if_eth0-d.rrd: not a simple signed integer: 'if_eth1.value'
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[21:33] <gnarface> plugwash: my apache configuration for this basically just aliases a directory in the docroot to /var/cache/munin/www and adds http basic auth and loads mod_expires.c with "ExpiresActive On" and "ExpiresDefault M310" ... whatever that is for
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[21:34] <gnarface> plugwash: the logs tend to be noisy. i've had issues with the plugins not working as expected and then finding out its because of stuff like nobody tested it on systems with more than 9 cores and stuff
[21:35] <gnarface> plugwash: often the bugs are simple stuff like that. tiny format changes in expected names of things that upset some slightly too narrow or wide grep regex...
[21:35] <plugwash> mmm, this is a fairly nice box, 8 cores, 16 hard drives, 24GB ram
[21:36] <gnarface> the 9 cores thing was literally that the plugin failed to count right when it found a multi-digit core count
[21:36] <gnarface> it barfed in fact
[21:36] <gnarface> because there were 16 cores
[21:36] <gnarface> but they fixed that right away when i reported it
[21:37] <gnarface> there was some other thing i remember hearing about 32-bit hardware not being capable of generating meaninful graph data about some network status counter for one of the bandwidth usage plugins i think
[21:37] <gnarface> i'm not sure if that's what the error you're having above is
[21:37] <gnarface> but note there was some caveat about netowrk counters if you're not on a 64-bit OS
[21:37] <gnarface> it might have been specific to gigabit ethernet
[21:37] <gnarface> its vague in my memory now
[21:38] <plugwash> do you really think i'd be running a 32-bit os on a machine with that much power?
[21:38] <gnarface> heh, no not really i guess but honestly i've seen people do it on purpose
[21:39] <plugwash> well it seems to be producing some output http://5.153.225.206/munin/bytemark/raspbian.org/index.html
[21:40] <gnarface> looks right, more or less
[21:40] <gnarface> most of them at least
[21:40] <gnarface> i'd give it a few hours to populate the graphs good then it'll be more obvious what is really broken and what is just badly behaved
[21:41] <gnarface> you ran munin-node-configure --shell or whatever it is right?
[21:41] <gnarface> so you got all the auto-detected plugins loaded?
[21:42] <gnarface> that must be the new munin
[21:42] <gnarface> 2.0
[21:43] <gnarface> we're still running the version in squeeze
[21:43] <gnarface> it seems to interoperate with wheezy munin-node instances fine for the most part though
[21:44] <plugwash> I just installed the packages and just let it configure itself
[21:44] <plugwash> (more or less)
[21:44] <gnarface> yea i'm running this on a large system that hasn't completely been ported to wheezy yet
[21:44] <gnarface> work in progress, not me holding it up
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[21:49] <plugwash> do you know if it can produce longer term graphs
[21:50] <gnarface> you mean for longer than a week?
[21:50] <plugwash> with mrtg I had graphs over "about a day", "about a week", "about a month" and "about a year", I'd like to keep that
[21:50] <gnarface> yea you should see those if you click on the weekly graph
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[21:51] <gnarface> er, sorry daily graph
[21:51] <and0r> wut bro
[21:51] <gnarface> plugwash: each server's page should be, by default, unless they changed it significantly in 2.0.x, a grid of daily graphs that are each a link to a page with that daily graph plus its weekly, monhly and yearly versions
[21:52] <plugwash> in my version it seems to show both the daily and weekly graphs on the "server" page and then clicking through gets the monthly and yearly ones too
[21:52] <and0r> .
[21:52] <plugwash> (which is find by me)
[21:52] <gnarface> plugwash: yea that must be a layout change since 2.0 then
[21:53] <gnarface> plugwash: i'm still running 1.45 or something like that on the munin host, the munin-node instances are mixed between that and the 2.0x
[21:53] <gnarface> hmm. i wonder if that's causing any bugs actually
[21:53] <gnarface> i'll have to take a closer look
[21:53] <and0r> what are you guys talking about?
[21:53] <gnarface> and0r: monitoring software
[21:54] <and0r> why?
[21:54] <gnarface> and0r: like, bandwidth usage and system health
[21:54] <gnarface> and0r: plugwash was looking fore something new
[21:54] <and0r> electric feels
[21:55] <gnarface> hmm. maybe 1.4 actually shows daily and weekly on the front page too now that i think of it
[21:55] <gnarface> they just changed the shapes a little
[21:55] <gnarface> and moved the menu
[21:56] <gnarface> you can change all the layout stuff if you really want but its probably not worth the effort
[21:57] <plugwash> and0r, because mrtg is a pain in the arse and so as part of the server move that is in progress I decided to investigate switching to something more modern
[21:58] <plugwash> (raspbian is moving to a new server)
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[23:02] <Zesty> can I install a different desktop to Raspbian?
[23:05] <plugwash> yes, how well it works will of course depend on which one you choose
[23:06] <Zesty> have you tried any other DEs or Distros besides Raspbian?
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[23:14] <plugwash> On the Pi no, on PCs sure.........
[23:14] <plugwash> I know people report that xfce, mate, most of the older windows managers etc work fine on raspbian
[23:14] <plugwash> I strongly suspect gnome3 will not work very well
[23:15] <plugwash> no idea how good kde is at handling limited resources nowadays
[23:15] <Zesty> yea, it is kinda under powered
[23:15] <Zesty> so, all these people are logged into this room, but nobody is talking?
[23:20] <gnarface> most people idle all day and just show up for a few hours to check their scroll back every night
[23:20] <gnarface> you never know, something interesting might happen
[23:21] <Zesty> I was kinda hoping for some action. Any good channels?
[23:21] <Zesty> THis is kinda boring...
[23:23] * blkaway is now known as blkhawk
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[23:25] <Zesty> Any suggestions for a mp3 player?
[23:25] <gnarface> i like audacious
[23:25] <gnarface> i wish they could get it to stop crashing at the end of every playlist though
[23:25] <plugwash> #raspberrypi is usually busier than here but it's 25 past midnight in the UK at the moment
[23:25] <plugwash> so don't expect too much activity right now
[23:25] <gnarface> mpg321 is graphics-free though. doesn't get lighter than that...
[23:28] <plugwash> in munin M means mega and m means milli right?
[23:28] <gnarface> i think so
[23:28] <gnarface> i know the auto-scaling of notation can be confusing at first
[23:28] * plugwash looked at a packet drop graph which initially looked rather scary then looked again at the scale
[23:29] <gnarface> it'll change the scale and notation on the fly even for most plugins
[23:29] <gnarface> based on the volume of the meter
[23:29] <gnarface> it tries to use something appropriate, but it threw me off at first too
[23:29] <plugwash> 240 megapackets per second dropped would be very bad, 240 millipackets per second isn't really a concern
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[23:31] <Zesty> I tried to get mpg123, and the package mgr pointed me to something else
[23:32] <urlgrey> Zesty: what would qualify as a 'millipacket'?
[23:32] <gregoa> plugwash: btw, bdale mentioned the rpi and raspbian several times during his freedombox talk at debconf: http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2013/debconf13/{high,low}/964_FreedomBox.ogv or http://www.irill.org/videos/debconf13/FreedomBox.webm
[23:33] <urlgrey> er, meant that for plugwash
[23:33] <Zesty> millipacket, no idea, why?
[23:34] <plugwash> the figures are averages over 5 minuites
[23:35] <plugwash> so the number of packets per second can reasonablly be less than 1 and more than 0
[23:35] <plugwash> even though each packet is obviously a discrete event
[23:36] <plugwash> gregoa, i'm not in the mood for whatching a video of a talk right now, is there a summary of the talk available? did they say anything particulaly interesting about us?
[23:37] <gregoa> plugwash: I don't think there's a summary somewhere. from my memory he mentiond the rpi as one of the hw platforms for the freedombox and that it's nice that it runs a debian derivative OOTB
[23:38] <and0r> im jesus
[23:38] <gregoa> plugwash: and there was some comment about talks about bringing debian and raspbian closer, but that was just half a sentence and I don't have any information what this was referring to
[23:39] <and0r> anyway, hello again... im sorta having a crash course in debeian bash CLI... can someone tell me the terminology for apps/daemons that can work on CLI
[23:39] <plugwash> hmm, so the freedombox guys are positive about the Pi.
[23:40] * plugwash thought there was a lot of overlap between freedombox and die-hard free software but that may be because of who introduced me to it
[23:40] <and0r> like is there an IRC client that will work in bash or something? what is something like this called? what am i looking for here
[23:41] <plugwash> try console irc client or so
[23:41] <gregoa> plugwash: bdale mentioned the dreamplug and how much work the binary blobs caused him, the rpi, and some new cool but not-yet-existing board
[23:41] <plugwash> or maybe terminal irc client or something like that
[23:42] <plugwash> the name bitchx springs to mind but I dunno how it compares.
[23:42] <and0r> like what is programs that dont use graphical assets
[23:42] <and0r> what is that called
[23:42] <gregoa> and0r: irssi is the "classical" non-graphical IRC client
[23:43] <and0r> im black
[23:44] <and0r> in my country ubuntu is friend
[23:44] * urlgrey (~urlgrey@199-116-73-2.sfo1.office.zencoderdns.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[23:44] <and0r> im joking...
[23:44] <and0r> anyway
[23:44] <and0r> so, ssh
[23:45] <and0r> is it running by default?
[23:45] <and0r> how do i see whats running using the CLI?
[23:46] <and0r> this is why linux will never become popular
[23:46] <and0r> 2long2getanswers
[23:47] <and0r> man pages are retarded, the debian administrators handbook is retarded
[23:47] <and0r> its like shit, do i really need to dig 9hours just to learn usage of a simple command
[23:49] <and0r> swear to god linux is like a special little snowflake club
[23:50] <and0r> like auto mechanics
[23:50] <Zesty> the learning curve on linux is a bit steep
[23:51] <Zesty> especially when you don't have time to re-learn everything
[23:51] <and0r> you think vehicles are supercomplex, but just like anything when you dig, you find that it's retarded as hell and mechanics are douchebags who think they're sitting on diamonds with car gods or something
[23:52] <and0r> that feel when snowflake club
[23:52] <and0r> i dont understand why people cant just dump out realtive info
[23:52] <Zesty> ok, I'm logging out for a bit
[23:53] <gnarface> and0r: with linux the real reason is usually that you're not qualified to make the decisions of where development effort gets allocated, and whoever was qualified to make that decision wasn't really the best at writing documentation so little effort has been made in 'friendlyness'
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[23:53] <and0r> thats no excuse
[23:53] <gnarface> and, sometimes the reason is just that its fine the way it is and you actually DO need to read all that to understand it, you just can't face the truth.
[23:54] <and0r> no, it can be a lot more efficient
[23:54] <gnarface> well, with the NMG i agree with you
[23:54] <and0r> i want to join the snowflake club, guys
[23:54] <gnarface> but if you're talking about fstab still i've got nosympathy
[23:55] <gnarface> it doesn't take 9 hours to figure out fstab
[23:55] <gnarface> half an hour maybe
[23:55] <plugwash> my advice if you are new to linux is to find a good book
[23:55] <gnarface> if you can't make it to a half an hour of consecutive reading, my advice is you seek medication
[23:55] <plugwash> online tutorials are all very well but a book forces the author to structure and order things
[23:55] <and0r> http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/
[23:55] <and0r> ?
[23:55] <gnarface> no, the editors force the author to structure and order things
[23:56] <gnarface> but usually good books come with good editors, luckily
[23:56] <plugwash> It's a long time since I learnt linux but I hear good reports about the debian administrators handbook and you can download it for free if you are someone who can stand reading books online (personally I like my books to be actual books)
[23:57] <and0r> how pretentious
[23:57] <Zesty> author RIckford Grant wrote a couple of good Linux books I've read
[23:57] <gnarface> and if you really want to be a beautiful little snowflake, you're gonna have to give up more than just 9 hours to it
[23:57] <Zesty> The Grant books assume you know computers, but not Linux
[23:58] <Zesty> so, it isn't like: Here's the power switch, try it out!"
[23:58] <gnarface> i like oreilly press generally
[23:58] <gnarface> they have great editors
[23:58] <gnarface> the last debian book they put out was like back during woody though i think
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