Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:00] <gnarface> plugwash: what would constitute such hardware? you got a link?
[0:00] * sealibora (~user@49.52.235.80.sta.estpak.ee) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[0:01] <plugwash> well any arm board with 2GB of ram
[0:02] <gnarface> its the right arch to compile natively for the pi?
[0:03] <gnarface> is its make&model a secret, or can you divulge a link where the rest of us pleebs could perhaps buy one?
[0:03] <plugwash> theres plenty of options odroid U2/X2/XU, wandboard quad, cubox i4pro, 2GB nitrogen6x, arndaleboard to name a few
[0:05] <plugwash> samsung chromebook, cubietruck
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[0:08] <plugwash> as a general rule if you can get debian armhf or ubuntu armhf on the thing you can deboostrap a raspbian chroot and use it to build packages for raspbian
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[0:12] <gnarface> wait, are you telling me you're using your cellphone?
[0:13] <plugwash> you could use a cellphone but it's generally a poor choice
[0:13] <plugwash> because afaict cellphones and tablets generally can't be connected to mains power and do USB host at the same time
[0:14] <SirLagz> not without a custom usb cable
[0:14] * mcnoche (~Thunderbi@205-168-220-129.dia.static.qwest.net) Quit (Quit: mcnoche)
[0:14] <SirLagz> a cheap china tablet would be better. I have one that has a mains plug and then 2 usb host plugs
[0:14] <plugwash> even with a custom USB cable some of them can't, in theory there is provision in the USB battery charging spec for charging and USB host at the same time but when I tried to make a custom cable to do it on a nexus 7 it didn't work
[0:14] <SirLagz> plugwash: interesting
[0:15] <plugwash> none of the options I mentioned above was a cellphone or tablet
[0:15] * vagrantc wonders why people strive to figure out the hardest way to do things
[0:16] <SirLagz> i don't actualy know what's going on. I just chimed in with a suggestino lol
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[0:19] <plugwash> gnarface, have I answered your question?
[0:20] <gnarface> plugwash: no, you danced around it excellently though. i was looking for you to link me something *i* could buy that could compile native rasbian binaries with 2gb of ram or more and a higher clock speed.
[0:22] <gnarface> plugwash: i could just try to pick keywords out of your reply and google them, but since the whole arm ecosystem is something entirely foreign to me, i assume i wouldn't be able to find any of this stuff on newegg, and my chances of being utterly ripped off trying to buy stuff without specific advice on a vendor and item would be near 80%
[0:23] <vagrantc> wandboard quad.
[0:24] <vagrantc> supported kernel in debian jessie or wheezy-backports ...
[0:24] <gnarface> plugwash: keep in mind my assumption is that you were telling me that there in fact IS hardware out there with more ram and a higher clock speed that can compile natively compatible raspbian wheezy binaries, natively. this is completely new information to me, shattering my previous assumptions about the nature of the pi hardwre
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[0:25] <vagrantc> most armv7 stuff can run armv6
[0:25] <gnarface> vagrantc: thanks.... but that brings up more questions
[0:25] <gnarface> vagrantc: i was under the impression that debian armhf won't run on the pi
[0:25] <vagrantc> it won't.
[0:26] <gnarface> vagrantc: wouldn't i need something then that is capable of running armv6 with hard float which debian is not?
[0:26] <plugwash> gnarface think of it like the difference between your old 486 and your modern PC
[0:26] <vagrantc> you can run raspbian on armv7 hardware ... either as the main OS, or in a chroot.
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[0:27] <gnarface> there is a step i'm missing then
[0:27] <plugwash> the modern PC can run software compiled for the 486 but the 486 can't run software built for a modern PC
[0:27] <vagrantc> gnarface: maybe just take a leap of faith...
[0:27] <plugwash> pretty much the same case here, your armv7 hardware can run software compiled for armv6 but your armv6 can't run software compiled for armv7
[0:28] <plugwash> gnarface, to directly answer your request for a purchase link http://www2.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Wandboard/WBQUAD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtF2lsQzIlof5%252beZ4ivUNox
[0:28] <vagrantc> gnarface: maybe you're looking for a step that isn't necessary...
[0:28] <vagrantc> it's as simple as "it works that way."
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[0:30] <plugwash> You just install a debian or ubuntu armhf system on your armv7 board, debootstrap a raspbian chroot and build packages for raspbian in it
[0:30] <plugwash> trust me this works, it's how raspbian itself is built
[0:31] <vagrantc> there are faster boards than the wandboard, but i'm not sure any are as well supported in Debian yet.
[0:31] <gnarface> vagrantc, plugwash is the part i was missing just that you can install raspbian hard float arm v6 in a chroot on an arm v7 board? then i could buy just any old super fast arm v7 hard float board?
[0:31] <vagrantc> more or less, yes.
[0:32] <gnarface> vagrantc, plugwash while running debian arm hf on the main system?
[0:32] <vagrantc> yup.
[0:32] <gnarface> sheesh you guys really fucking dance around the bush
[0:32] <gnarface> you could have told me that in one sentence
[0:32] <gnarface> but thanks for the info
[0:32] <vagrantc> thought i was pretty straightforward.
[0:33] <gnarface> vagrantc: you were more straightforward
[0:34] <gnarface> likening the situation to a 486 vs a modern pc was a key bit of info that contradicted what i'd been previously told though
[0:34] <vagrantc> although, stick with a board that can do sata or USB3 for performance reasons.
[0:35] <vagrantc> backwards compatible vs. forward compatible
[0:35] <plugwash> gnarface> vagrantc, plugwash is the part i was missing just that you can install raspbian hard float arm v6 in a chroot on an arm v7 board? then i could buy just any old super fast arm v7 hard float board?
[0:36] <gnarface> plugwash: yes or no?
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[0:37] <gnarface> plugwash: is there a fundamental problem with the statement you would like to call to focus that vagrantc ignored?
[0:37] <vagrantc> like any board, you'll proabably need to consider a number of factors... but the basic idea seems correct to me.
[0:37] <plugwash> Pretty much yes, just make sure someone has got a usable debian or ubuntu armhf system running on the board before you buy
[0:38] <gnarface> plugwash: ok fair enough.
[0:39] <plugwash> I like the wandboard quad because it's pretty reasonablly priced, can run with a debian provided kernel (good for longevity, too many boards get stuck on outdated vendor kernels) and has 2GB of ram and SATA
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[0:41] <gnarface> plugwash, vagrantc ok thank you both... i *think* i have a better picture of how to do this now
[0:42] <plugwash> and it's available from a reputable vendor which counts for a lot
[0:42] <gnarface> yea
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[0:42] <gnarface> if i could use this linked wandboard ... ARM CORTEX-A9 ?
[0:42] <gnarface> and boot debian native arm hf wheezy
[0:43] <gnarface> then just install raspbian in a chroot on it
[0:43] <plugwash> dunno if you are familiar with mouser but afaict they are one of the largest electronics distributors in the USA and from the few times i've used them they seem very nice to deal with
[0:43] <gnarface> and use the chroot to compile native raspbian packages that would install and run on the pi with hard-float support that would be really really awesome
[0:43] <gnarface> this is actually the first i've heard of them
[0:44] <gnarface> are you telling me that would work though? or are there special compiler flags i'd have to know too?
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[0:46] <gnarface> so ok maybe it would help if i explained that i regularly on my debian amd64 systems, set up chroots, debootstrap debian into them, and use them to set up i386 compile environments using debian amd64 multiarch support for obscene things like wine
[0:46] <gnarface> compared to a setup like that, what specific steps am i missing to do something similar for raspbian on say, one of these wandboards?
[0:47] <gnarface> is the answer "nothing", is that something you can tell me specifically, or is it just something i'll have to discover myself?
[0:49] <gnarface> i mean, if that's the case please don't leave me hanging just at least give me the courtesy of responding "yea, fuck you, figure it out yourself"
[0:51] <plugwash> To create the chroot would be something along the lines of "debootstrap --arch=armhf --no-check-gpg wheezy /chroots/wheezy-raspbian https://archive.raspbian.org/raspbian"
[0:51] <gnarface> yea yea, i get the process, done it on intel
[0:52] <plugwash> The compilers in raspbian will do the right thing for targetting raspbian by default so normally you don't have to do anything special
[0:52] <gnarface> i can debootstrap raspbian though? i guess that's the question i really am trying to ask
[0:52] <gnarface> i mean, i can debootstrap raspbian from debian ?
[0:52] <gnarface> that would be news to me
[0:52] <gnarface> i'm not savvy enough about the internals to have assumed that would be possible
[0:53] <plugwash> yes you can, point it at a raspbian mirror rather than a debian mirror and tell it not to check the gpg key and it will do the right thing
[0:53] <gnarface> if its just as simple as picking --arch=armhf and the right repo that's ... awesome
[0:53] <gnarface> (and being on an arm arch of greater or equal version of course)
[0:53] <gnarface> yea that's a neat trick
[0:53] <gnarface> thanks for the info
[0:54] <cjwelborn> plugwash: for what it's worth, I tried using a chroot, and successfully compiled 2 ARM executables, but the PyPy compile didn't go well. It may have been my inexperience with chroot and cross-compiling (didnt really know how to get a Raspbian chroot, I was just using the PyPy tutorial on compiling in a chroot which happened to be Ubuntu).
[0:54] <plugwash> That and do something about the gpg key, either tell debootstrap not to check it (the lazy but less secure option) or work out the options to feed the right key in (the harder but more secure option)
[0:54] <gnarface> ok
[0:55] <gnarface> plugwash: and you favor these wandboards for debian support?
[0:57] <plugwash> I favour them for several reasons, availability, price, support in debian kernels, SATA support, availability from a large distributor
[0:58] <plugwash> (note that only the wandboard quad has the SATA and 2GB ram, the lower model wandboards do not)
[0:58] <plugwash> One final thing to be aware of, the raspbian compilers will do the right thing by default but occasionally you run into a package build system that is too clever for it's own good
[0:58] <plugwash> and starts passing flags based on the CPU it detects it's running from
[0:59] <gnarface> hmmm. noted
[1:00] <plugwash> cjwelborn, umm was this a chroot on arm hardware or were you trying to cross-compile
[1:03] <cjwelborn> plugwash: i am running on 64bit AMD, the chroot was setup for ARM. uname -a said 'armv7l', and for the 2 test executables that worked a `file myexec` said 'ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM'
[1:03] <cjwelborn> well, I am running on a 64bit Pentium actually
[1:03] <plugwash> ahh a qemu chroot?
[1:03] <cjwelborn> yes, that was it. (sorry, like i said i'm new to chroot/cross-compiling)
[1:04] <plugwash> iirc user mode quemu has some serious bugs in it's threading support that break some builds
[1:06] <cjwelborn> ahh.. well let me say this and I will shut up about it. Compiling PyPy for my Pentium takes about 45 minutes. The first failed ARM build took over 6 hours, and then I tried something else that took 3 hours, compiled successfully, but did not run as expected. This is the only reason I would humbly ask a Raspbian maintainer to backport that specific package. :)
[1:07] <cjwelborn> its just a weird thing for people that aren't as experienced.
[1:07] <plugwash> hmm, it's not like we did anything special for the pypy package in raspbian jessie, our autobuilder system just pulled in the source and built it
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[1:08] <plugwash> Though looking at it it failed on the first attempt suceeded on the second
[1:09] <plugwash> hmm, actually looking at the error I suspect I increased the timeout.....................
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[1:09] <plugwash> the successful build took 21 hours and 32 minuites................
[1:09] <cjwelborn> wow.
[1:10] <plugwash> It's quicker than libreoffice....
[1:11] <plugwash> actually no i'm misremembering, it's actually slightly longer than libreoffice
[1:11] <cjwelborn> I personally have never worked on anything that big. I know builds can takes hours, maybe even days. I'm just glad I found that jessie package so I don't have to go through this again.
[1:11] <plugwash> I know we have at least one package that takes over 24 hours on a wandboard quad though I can't remember which offhand
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[1:15] <plugwash> looks like there are a couple, acl2 and openjdk-7
[1:17] <cjwelborn> so thats how the raspbian packages are built? automatically on a wandboard quad?
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[1:21] <plugwash> Currently raspbian wheezy is built on imx53 quickstart boards while raspbian jessie is built on the wandboard quads
[1:21] <cjwelborn> i gotta get one of those. I have some projects in mind for my new house and I want an inexpensive and dedicated machine to do some simple things like cameras or a media-server.
[1:21] <plugwash> we plan to move wheezy over to the wandboards too at some point but I haven't got arround to working out the details yet
[1:22] <cjwelborn> plugwash: cool, thanks for all the info. It was very helpful.
[1:22] <plugwash> (well strictly speaking the jessie build farm is five wandboard quads and a nitrogen6x but hardware wise they are basically the same)
[1:23] <plugwash> the wandboard quad is a lot cheaper then the nitrogen6x but wasn't on the market when we bought it
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[1:35] <gnarface> plugwash: just so i'm clear here, i *can't* actually successfully make a chrooted raspbian environment on a modern amd64 system, right?
[1:36] <gnarface> plugwash: that *would* require the hardwired 256MB, 500mhz (or whatever it is specifically) limited qemu software, right?
[1:37] <gnarface> (plugwash and by "successfully" i mean "running at an arbitrary ram amount and clock speed up to that which is available on the host)
[1:37] <gnarface> or has something changed since the last time i asked that question?
[1:38] <gnarface> i know its inevitable that some day someone will do this work but last i asked i thought i was told "no-way no-how"
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[1:40] <plugwash> You can use qemu in "user mode" to make a raspbian chroot on an amd64 system
[1:41] <gnarface> but its "not very fast" right?
[1:41] <gnarface> due to the hardwired clock speed and ram limitations?
[1:41] <plugwash> Afaict there is no hardwired clock speed but the emulation does have significant overhead so it won't be fast
[1:41] <plugwash> and there are bugs that prevent some packages building
[1:42] <gnarface> not even fast on say, and 4ghz, 8-core amd64 system with 1600mhz ram right?
[1:42] <gnarface> (compared to say the wandboard you linked)
[1:43] <gnarface> i'm just trying to get the perspective into focus here because i have a LOT of spare amd64 cpu cycles laying around....
[1:43] <gnarface> and a TON of ram for those machines
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[1:44] <plugwash> In terms of CPU performance qemu on a fast amd64 box is probablly about level with something like the wandboard
[1:44] <plugwash> of course in terms of performance per watt it will suck
[1:46] <plugwash> qemu in user mode is actually very good from a memory point of view, i've had the occasional build that ran out of address space on real arm hardware but was able to build in qemu
[1:46] <plugwash> if you want to try it then the setup goes something like
[1:46] <plugwash> apt-get install qemu-user-static binfmt-support
[1:48] <gnarface> hmm. qemu-user-static. just knowing the proper package names is a huge breakthrough. thanks
[1:48] <plugwash> debootstrap --arch=armhf --no-check-gpg --foreign wheezy /chroots/wheezy-raspbian https://archive.raspbian.org/raspbian
[1:48] <plugwash> cp /usr/bin/qemu-arm-static /chroots/wheezy-raspbian/usr/bin
[1:49] <plugwash> chroot /chroots/wheezy-raspbian
[1:49] <gnarface> hmmmm
[1:49] <gnarface> why the cp?
[1:49] <plugwash> debootstrap/debootstrap --second-stage
[1:50] <gnarface> i guess i can look it up. doing normal chroot debootstraps from amd64->amd64 and amd64->i386 i've never used "--second stage"
[1:51] <gnarface> so that's a part of the process i'm unfamiliar with
[1:51] <gnarface> er, "--second-stage" i mean, obviously. (typo)
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[1:52] <plugwash> the emulator needs to be inside the chroot or it won't be found after chrooting
[1:53] <gnarface> oh, and its not in any raspbian packages
[1:53] <gnarface> i guess that makes sense
[1:53] <plugwash> basically the way this works is that the kernel sees an arm binary, realises it can't load it directly and through the binfmt_misc mechanism (thats when the binfmt_support package is for) passes it to qemu
[1:53] <gnarface> got it
[1:53] <gnarface> that's neat
[1:54] <gnarface> i would never have even guessed this would be doable
[1:54] <gnarface> not without an entirely customized parent OS
[1:54] <plugwash> The --foreign option tells deboostrap to only do the first stage of the bootstrap process that doesn't involve running anything in the target chroot
[1:55] <gnarface> ah
[1:55] <gnarface> ok
[1:55] <plugwash> then after we have the emulator in place so we can actually run the binaries in the target chroot we run "debootstrap/debootstrap --second-stage" in the chroot to finish the process
[1:56] <gnarface> yea, that makes sense now that you say that when i look at the man page
[1:56] <gnarface> but i would never have been able to figure that out from the man page alone
[1:56] <gnarface> wait
[1:56] <gnarface> sorry misstell
[1:56] <gnarface> (wait was for another channel)
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[1:58] <gnarface> thanks for the info plugwash
[1:58] <gnarface> you are, as always, a fountain of knowledge
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[9:31] * Chetic (~chetic@c83-250-75-148.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #raspbian
[9:32] <Chetic> is there a way to make raspbian run a set of commands on bootup through a file on the sd card?
[9:32] <Chetic> ie not having to plug in a display/serial terminal
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[9:40] <Odie_> Chetic: yes
[9:41] <Chetic> how?
[9:43] <Odie_> one way is to make rc.local to run them
[9:43] <Odie_> I dont have my raspbian running atm, so I can't check which directory that file is
[9:43] <Chetic> I meant does raspbian support this from the start
[9:43] <Odie_> yes
[9:44] <Chetic> without logging in
[9:44] <Chetic> through a terminal
[9:44] <Chetic> at all
[9:44] <Odie_> it always does this at boot
[9:44] <Odie_> executes that rc.local script, which is text file containign commands
[9:44] <Odie_> and many others
[9:44] <Chetic> aah of course, if I mount the ext file systems on my pc
[9:45] <Chetic> I'm on windows, didn't think of that
[9:45] <Odie_> yes
[9:45] <Chetic> thanks for the idea :)
[9:45] <Odie_> and if it has fat partition, its not that hard to make it mount that either
[9:45] <Odie_> so it may make modifying the command list easier if you mainly run windows
[10:00] * sealibor_ (~user@49.52.235.80.sta.estpak.ee) has joined #raspbian
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[14:37] * twolife is now known as twolife`
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[14:53] <dwffcas> where are the logs located for nfs server running raspbian on the raspberry pi?
[14:58] * Arnold73 (~Arnold73@128.204.203.103) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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[15:50] * zenpac (~zenpac3@66.55.33.66) has joined #raspbian
[15:50] <zenpac> Do all the Raspbian images come with Mathematica?
[15:51] <shiftplusone> Just the foundation one does.
[15:52] <shiftplusone> (but you can install it on any image, if you need it)
[16:01] * Xiguanda (~drtxus@176.Red-88-18-1.staticIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[16:02] * ruben-ikmaak (~ikmaak@541A275B.cm-5-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[16:07] * Stanto (~Stanto@li285-77.members.linode.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
[16:08] * ruben-ikmaak (~ikmaak@541A275B.cm-5-3a.dynamic.ziggo.nl) has joined #raspbian
[16:08] <zenpac> Does http://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ qualify as the foundation image?
[16:09] <shiftplusone> yeah
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[16:09] * sealibora (~user@49.52.235.80.sta.estpak.ee) has joined #raspbian
[16:10] <zenpac> Great.. Thats excellent.. Maxima isn't too shabby either.
[16:12] * h41 (~h41@f052122138.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #raspbian
[16:12] * outofbounds (~outofboun@198.199.109.226) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[16:12] * karimb (kboumedhel@nat/redhat/x-igbqzjzkcffrayps) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[16:13] * DrShoggoth (~prakwtf@68-188-85-162.static.stls.mo.charter.com) has joined #raspbian
[16:14] <shiftplusone> Maxima is like an open-source alternative to Maple, from what I gather?
[16:14] * RichardBronosky (~RichardBr@ec2-50-17-28-78.compute-1.amazonaws.com) has joined #raspbian
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[16:21] * Alina-malina (Alina-mali@unaffiliated/alina-malina) Quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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[16:35] * mdorenka (~mdorenka@x2f6a914.dyn.telefonica.de) has joined #raspbian
[16:38] * billcho (~bill@101.10.65.157) Quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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[16:50] <gregc2> does anyone know why in raspbian using multiple wifi cards the pi will disconnect with a reason code 3?
[16:58] * exiton_ (~exiton@brln-4db9c410.pool.mediaWays.net) has left #raspbian
[17:00] * exiton (~exiton@brln-4db9c410.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #raspbian
[17:00] * the_brush (~the__brus@dynamic-adsl-84-223-96-184.clienti.tiscali.it) Quit (Quit: Sto andando via)
[17:03] * stationweb (~narsene@212.234.155.101) Quit (Quit: stationweb)
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[17:13] * mike_t (~mike@109.169.220.21) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[17:17] * Peter`Pan (~Peter@195-154-251-45.rev.poneytelecom.eu) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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[17:38] * Bercik (Yotsuba@unaffiliated/bercik) Quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[17:40] * oberstet (~quassel@host-188-174-212-82.customer.m-online.net) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:42] * Googy (~Gooogy@31-19-202-246-dynip.superkabel.de) Quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
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[18:00] * aliocha (~aliocha@office.paris.yodog.fr) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
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[18:04] * rela (~x@pdpc/supporter/active/rela) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[18:41] <Xiguanda> me piro
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[19:17] <ncrul> hi
[19:17] <ncrul> can anyone help me for libcec?
[19:18] <gnarface> ncrul: all i can help you do is install it
[19:19] <gnarface> ncrul: if you're trying to compile something with it, note that you also need the libcec-dev package
[19:19] <gnarface> ncrul: that's all i got though, sorry. i can't help you with actually "using it" in code
[19:20] * gniourf (~gniourf@pdm-l03.insa-lyon.fr) has joined #raspbian
[19:20] <ncrul> gnarface: i am new at raspbian
[19:20] <gnarface> ncrul: if you state the specific problem you're actually having (assuming that wasn't it) then someone might be able to help you later. patience is often key in IRC
[19:22] * girafe (~girafe@213-245-69-170.rev.numericable.fr) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[19:22] <ncrul> i have got sony tv kdl-32ex402
[19:22] <gnarface> ncrul: in raspbian, as in debian, all the compilation requirements are in separate packages from their corresponding runtime libraries, typically named similarly to said library package but with "-dev"
[19:24] <gnarface> ncrul: i see. well there should be instructions on how to use it in /usr/share/doc/[package name]
[19:24] <gnarface> ncrul: also, their website (http://libcec.pulse-eight.com/) mentions they have their own IRC channel at #pulse-eight
[19:24] <gnarface> if you're totally lost perhaps they can help you in there?
[19:25] <ncrul> thank you :)
[19:25] <gnarface> no problem
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[23:39] * CEnnis91 (uid3543@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-myqltjzlngjmlwav) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
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These logs were automatically created by RaspbianLogBot on irc.freenode.net using the Java IRC LogBot.