#raspbian IRC Log


IRC Log for 2014-10-26

Timestamps are in GMT/BST.

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[9:01] <heller_> btw how much current can GPIO pins 3v3 source?
[9:01] <heller_> they are all tied together?
[9:01] <heller_> well, all two of them :P
[9:12] * twolife` is now known as twolife
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[11:16] <gordonDrogon> heller_, about 15mA each, however the total limit is 50mA over all GPIOs.
[11:17] <gordonDrogon> its possible to make them source more, but the output voltage drops and everything goes out of spec...
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[11:25] <heller_> gordonDrogon: i mean the 3v3 pins on the GPIO?
[11:26] <heller_> not the IO pins only
[11:27] <heller_> or the 5V pin on the IO set
[11:27] <heller_> so, how much i can draw from pin 1 or 2?
[11:29] <gordonDrogon> heller_, yes, the 3.3v gpio pins - 15mA each max. or 50mA in total.
[11:29] <gordonDrogon> you can draw more off the 5v pin - not switchable - up to the limit of your Pi & the PSU
[11:29] * halothe23 (~halothe23@freenode/sponsor/halothe23) Quit (Quit: Quit)
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[11:30] <gordonDrogon> if you need to switch a higher load, do look at using some sort of buffer.
[11:31] <heller_> gordonDrogon: so basically i can draw from 5V as much as USB supports?
[11:32] <heller_> i need a schematic damnit :p
[11:32] * halothe23 (~halothe23@freenode/sponsor/halothe23) Quit (Client Quit)
[11:32] <gordonDrogon> schematic of what?
[11:32] <heller_> raspberry
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[11:33] <gordonDrogon> what exactly are you after?
[11:34] <gordonDrogon> on the gpio side, it's nothing special - pins exit the SoC and go to the connector...
[11:34] <heller_> just wondering
[11:34] <heller_> nothing special really.
[11:34] <heller_> just want to know if i need it :)
[11:35] <heller_> and slightly comparing to arduino
[11:35] <gordonDrogon> http://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/schematics/README.md
[11:35] <plugwash> BTW always remember that a schematic is an incomplete specification of a circuit
[11:35] <heller_> ah, thanks
[11:35] * blkaway is now known as blkhawk
[11:35] <gordonDrogon> it's different from an arduino, that's for sure.
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[11:45] <heller_> gordonDrogon: yeah, i know that :)
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[15:22] <TheSnide> how much does a typical i2c chain draws ?
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[15:30] <shiftplusone> consult thy datasheets
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[15:33] <TheSnide> shiftplusone: ;-) i just wanted to avoid that part
[15:33] <shiftplusone> Ah, that's a bad plan.
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[15:54] <TheSnide> spoiled younglings :-)
[15:55] <TheSnide> i wanted to have multiple i2c buses on the gpio
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[16:03] <gordonDrogon> I2C doesn't "draw" anything significant - if it's current you mean.
[16:03] <gordonDrogon> it's the actual peripherals themselves... some - e.g. motors can draw killowatts ..
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[16:24] <TheSnide> butbthese should be behind a mosfet anyway
[16:24] <TheSnide> /but these/
[16:33] <gordonDrogon> sure - but I2C itself is a pull-down bus. the current drawn will be no more than the current through the 2 1k8 resistors from the 3.3v line.
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[16:40] <Testing1> Hello, is anyone here iptables savvy?
[16:44] <shiftplusone> gordonDrogon, did you pull the RTB source code? O_o
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[16:48] <Testing1> Guys, does anyone know (or know of a source where I can read up on) how to redirect all lan traffic to a website?
[16:49] <Testing1> I want it so that when users try to access google.com they are redirected to sort of a captive portal with a TOS that they need to accept.
[16:49] <shiftplusone> Put cat videos on it.
[16:49] <shiftplusone> oh.. >.>
[16:49] <shiftplusone> so you're not trying to take over the internet, got it.
[16:49] <Testing1> lol no
[16:50] <gordonDrogon> shiftplusone, yes.
[16:50] <Testing1> It is just a page they need to accept then are able to browse normally without interference
[16:50] <gordonDrogon> shiftplusone, (sorry)
[16:50] <gordonDrogon> Testing1, captive portals are so last year )-:
[16:51] <Testing1> I know
[16:51] <shiftplusone> Oh I obviously dont mind, it's your business. I was just wondering if I'm just really bad at finding things.
[16:51] <Testing1> Any good sources, gordonDrogon ?
[16:51] <gordonDrogon> Testing1, I made my own - used Lunux iptables and the redirect firewall rule to force unknown IPs to the portal web server.
[16:52] <rozie> Testing1: http://www.chillispot.org/
[16:52] <rozie> you can take a look on this
[16:52] <gordonDrogon> then when they gave me their email address I added their IP to the forwarding table and off they went.
[16:52] <Testing1> Thx rozie
[16:52] <gordonDrogon> although I continued to force proxy port 80.
[16:52] <Testing1> Hmnm, gordonDrogon , any site or forum where you may have posted that?
[16:53] <gordonDrogon> but that was for link efficiecty reasons - that particular one used 3G backhaul.
[16:53] <Testing1> I can't seem to get the iptables commands right
[16:53] <gordonDrogon> sorry - no - it was part of a private project.
[16:53] <Testing1> Ah ok
[16:53] * mike_t (~mike@ Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[16:53] <gordonDrogon> however all the information is out there - just look for linux redirect firewalls and force proxying, etc.
[16:54] <Testing1> thx
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[16:59] <sine0> has anyone used the minecraftpi image
[16:59] <sine0> someone made a server specific image
[17:03] <TheSnide> gordonDrogon: does the i2c driver is hw accelerated ?
[17:03] <PhotoJim> I haven't, but my 1 GB 1 GHz dual-CPU PIII server (being retired this week :) ) made for a slow Minecraft server, so I expect a Pi to be worse.
[17:04] <TheSnide> gordonDrogon: i mean, if i want to use all the other GPIO to have multiple i2c buses, i have to recode a s/w driber ?
[17:04] <gordonDrogon> TheSnide, at 100Khz, you hadly need aceleration, however the SoC supports I2C directly and there is a kernel driver for it.
[17:04] <gordonDrogon> if you want other I2C, then you'll need to bit-bang it. the kernel driver supports the SoC hardware driver only.
[17:04] <TheSnide> on all gpio ?
[17:05] <TheSnide> ok, yhat what i thougt.
[17:05] <gordonDrogon> well - a microengine inside the SoC.
[17:05] <TheSnide> thx
[17:05] <sine0> PhotoJim: i saw some people using the server with plugins to limit the spawning of chunks and it worked ok
[17:05] <gordonDrogon> there are 2 I2C buses on the Pi though. You're not supposed to use one, but you can use it in a dedicated applciation.
[17:05] <TheSnide> regular B ?
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[17:06] <PhotoJim> sine0: maybe it could be made to work OK, but it wouldn't be terribly expensive to find superior hardware for the purpose, and it would be a lot more satisfying.
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[17:07] <PhotoJim> sine0: as an experiment, go for it, but it would be to see what happens, not to have an enjoyable Minecraft experience.
[17:07] <gordonDrogon> TheSnide, yes on a regular B. Accessing the 2nd I2C is tricky though.
[17:07] <sine0> PhotoJim: I have a Tower unit with i7 and 16GB gaming ram etc that i dont really use but its not here, i have a couple of pi units and i want to play
[17:08] <gordonDrogon> as in tricky - needs a soldering iron. I think you can get to it on a rev 2 B on the P5/P6 port...
[17:08] <PhotoJim> sine0: I imagine RAM would be the biggest issue. I doubt you need an i7. a 4 GB Core 2, maybe even P4, would do nicely.
[17:08] <PhotoJim> depending on how many simultaneous players of course.
[17:10] <sine0> i have a spare pi and a 4gb sd image so i want to set it up on the local network :D
[17:10] <PhotoJim> try it. just expect to be annoyed :)
[17:10] <PhotoJim> a 512 MB Pi will do it massively better. Be sure to minimize the RAM used for video on the Pi so you have more for Raspbian.
[17:10] <PhotoJim> SD space isn't what you need, physical RAM is.
[17:11] <sine0> i only have B+
[17:11] <sine0> so they are 512
[17:11] <PhotoJim> well your experience will be as good as it can be on a Pi then. just be sure to minimize the video RAM allocation.
[17:11] <PhotoJim> it will do you no good.
[17:11] <sine0> and i use headless pi
[17:12] <sine0> what about using a usb for the main root partition
[17:12] <PhotoJim> you mean a flash drive?
[17:12] <gordonDrogon> one more thing to go wrong...
[17:12] <gordonDrogon> or be accidentally unplugged.
[17:12] <PhotoJim> that's true
[17:12] <PhotoJim> although a USB flash drive is more likely to be reliable than an SD card
[17:12] <PhotoJim> it's a bit of a toss-up
[17:12] <gordonDrogon> I'm told they are faster, but then if you also do a lot of Ethernet traffic, you're sharing that one USB interface...
[17:12] <sine0> no ones going to be unplugging stuff without know how
[17:13] <sine0> one ? i have 4 usb and i use lan
[17:13] <PhotoJim> I/O speed won't be your problem anyway
[17:13] <sine0> I only use raspberry pi B+ models
[17:13] <PhotoJim> sine0: there's only one USB bus on the Pi. use more than one device (and the built-in Ethernet counts), you lose throughput on the other devices potentially.
[17:13] <sine0> WHAT
[17:13] <sine0> really
[17:13] <PhotoJim> yes
[17:13] <PhotoJim> you're sharing one pipe
[17:13] <sine0> wow thats new to me
[17:14] <PhotoJim> only one device can use it at a time. multiple devices can virtually share it by taking turns.
[17:14] <PhotoJim> it's like rush hour on a freeway in a big city, at worst. middle of the night, no one else is using the road, it's fast.
[17:14] <PhotoJim> middle of the afternoon, everyone using the road, it's slow.
[17:15] <PhotoJim> and the built-in Ethernet, although it isn't obvious, is electronically a USB device.
[17:15] <sine0> thanks for the bite size analogy for primary schoolers lol
[17:15] <sine0> reminds me of trading places when they talk to eddie murphey about the pork bellies
[17:15] <PhotoJim> I can't assume what you know. you didn't know about USB buses having maximum capacity :)
[17:16] <sine0> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emvySA1-3t8
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[17:17] <sine0> i didnt know the ethernet was on the usb bus
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[17:19] <PhotoJim> [ 3.161416] smsc95xx 1-1.1:1.0 eth0: register 'smsc95xx' at usb-bcm2708_usb-1.1, smsc95xx USB 2.0 Ethernet, b8:27:eb:f9:25:64
[17:19] <PhotoJim> cheaper I imagine
[17:20] <PhotoJim> btw /boot/config.txt ... edit the line gpu_mem to read gpu_mem=16 to minimize the RAM used for video
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[17:20] <PhotoJim> you'll have to reboot after changing it
[17:22] <TheSnide> gordonDrogon: i'll do with bit twiddling. easier than soldering
[17:22] <gordonDrogon> TheSnide, might you be better off with a bus multiplexor?
[17:23] <TheSnide> bitshifting ?
[17:23] <gordonDrogon> I'm using one on another projects - lets me have 8 I2C buses - handy for peripherals with fixed I2C addresses.
[17:24] <TheSnide> yeah, fixed i2c adresses are a pita
[17:24] <gordonDrogon> so I use the Pi'2 on-board I2C bus, connect that to the mux. program the mux to select channel, then access the devices on that channel...
[17:25] <TheSnide> might be interesting. what i want to do is 32 io with 256 levels
[17:26] <gordonDrogon> 32 analog outputs?
[17:26] <TheSnide> i saw some a/d convertors, but it seems ultra cumbersome to use
[17:27] <TheSnide> yep.
[17:27] <gordonDrogon> there are some 8-port ones - they have a 3-bit address selector, so 8 of them on a single I2C bus.
[17:27] <TheSnide> i mean, i'd like to have a mostly infinite io analog outputs
[17:28] <gordonDrogon> won't be fast polling them though, but that's more to do with I2C.
[17:28] <TheSnide> infinite = 32
[17:29] <TheSnide> can i2c be irq'ed ?
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[17:31] <heller_> what temp sensors do you suggest for rpi?
[17:31] <gordonDrogon> not really, however there are ways to connect device IRQ lines back into the Pi.
[17:31] <heller_> or light sensors
[17:31] <TheSnide> ... on top of that i'd need to abstract them away in a neat API (But that seems.the easiest thing)
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[17:32] <PhotoJim> there, that line of thinking freed up 48 MB of RAM on my headless Pi. I still had gpu_ram set to 64 MB, unnecessarily.
[17:32] <gordonDrogon> look at wiringPi - there's a way there to add more "pins" into the system, then you just x = analogRead (pin)
[17:33] <gordonDrogon> PhotoJim, dump rsyslog too - unless you ever read the logs...
[17:33] <PhotoJim> that's a good idea.
[17:33] <gordonDrogon> set number of consoles in /etc/inittab to 2 too - saves a few more KB.
[17:33] <PhotoJim> I do use the logs sometimes, but not a lot.
[17:33] <PhotoJim> oh, also a good idea.
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[17:34] <PhotoJim> gordonDrogon: do I need more than one console? I am using the ttyACM0 console via a USB header cable.
[17:34] <PhotoJim> gordonDrogon: but there's no display attached to the Pi.
[17:35] <gordonDrogon> PhotoJim, not really. might as well disable them all (but I've never run a Pi/Linux box like that!) maybe jsut leave one...
[17:35] <PhotoJim> probably safer.
[17:35] <PhotoJim> easy enough to fix though too.
[17:35] <PhotoJim> I'll leave one plus the ttyAMA0 one.
[17:35] <gordonDrogon> yes. don't remove that one... looks at foot, decides to not shoot it :)
[17:35] <PhotoJim> heh :)
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[17:37] <PhotoJim> 236736/59168/177568 before, 236736/56644/180092 after.
[17:37] <PhotoJim> so that freed up 2.5 MB.
[17:37] <PhotoJim> not insignificant.
[17:37] <TheSnide> can we disable the gpu output ?
[17:37] <gordonDrogon> depends what you need it for.
[17:38] <gordonDrogon> another trick is to go completely against the popular thinking and force swappiness to be 99% - then inactive programs get swapped out fairly quickly and tend to stay swapped out.
[17:39] <PhotoJim> a hard disk in a case could serve as swap. no worries about killing flash.
[17:41] <gordonDrogon> you only need 64MB of swap to accomplish that - anything more and performance dies a death if it really has to swap...
[17:54] <Odie_> is there something special you need that ram for? or is this just to see whats the max you get?
[17:55] <PhotoJim> nothing specific in my case, just trying to improve performance in general by getting rid of anything that doesn't benefit me.
[17:55] <PhotoJim> right now it's not immediately helpful but that could change. I have some services I'm contemplating moving to my Pi.
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[18:28] <TheSnide> gordonDrogon: do you have some doc on those mux ?
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[18:30] <gordonDrogon> TheSnide, er - hang on. I'll lookup the one I'm using.
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[18:33] <gordonDrogon> pca9548a
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[18:34] <gordonDrogon> it's a device at ID 0x70 - you send that a value and each bit in the number you send wires that outside I2C bus to the inside one.
[18:35] <gordonDrogon> So you can select 0-8 channels to connect to the input I2C bus.
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[18:39] <TheSnide> nice
[18:40] <TheSnide> like a i2c bridge
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[18:43] <gordonDrogon> yes.
[18:44] <gordonDrogon> it can also cope with different voltages on either side.
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[19:30] <ziikutv> Hi guys, is it possible to modify raspbian and take out the desktop stuff? I want to make an "OS" that runs on raspberry PI that only does one thing: Run a single application. The application is a full-screen application that I am planning to make. But when the Raspberry PI starts, I do not want to have to see the OS/desktop/anything just have to app start.
[19:30] <ziikutv> Do I even need to modify raspbian or ?
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[19:40] <heller_> start the program on boot and disable canceling it?
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[19:42] <Phonik_G> if you use ua-netinstall it installs without desktop... its a minimal raspbian install
[19:53] <TheSnide> +1 to ua-netinstall
[19:53] * wbx_ is now known as wbx
[19:55] <Odie_> or do regular install and don't start the programs you need
[19:55] <Odie_> *dont need
[19:55] <Phonik_G> https://github.com/debian-pi/raspbian-ua-netinst
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[21:26] <user22> Greetings
[21:27] <user22> Can anyone help me with an issue regarding Raspbian?
[21:27] <shiftplusone> Not without more information
[21:28] <user22> Sure. Writting...
[21:30] <user22> I'm using Raspbian with updated firmare through rpi-update. Latest version is 3.12.31+
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[21:30] <user22> On the folder /lib/modules/3.12.31+ should exist the build folder, but it does not.
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[21:31] <shiftplusone> Yup
[21:31] <shiftplusone> that's just the way it is.
[21:31] <user22> Well the driver I'm trying to compile on its makefile points towards such folder. Since it doesnt exists I'm stuck.
[21:33] <shiftplusone> So you'll either need to use the raspbbian-provided kernel or download the source manually
[21:33] <user22> The source should be downloaded using sudo apt-get install linux-headers-$(uname -r) right ?
[21:35] <shiftplusone> directly from github. The raspberry pi foundation does not provide a source package.
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[21:35] <user22> ahh ok. would it be safe if I placed it on /lib/modules/3.12.31+/build folder after downloaded
[21:36] <shiftplusone> I symlink
[21:36] <user22> nice
[21:36] <user22> I will try it. Thank you.
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[21:36] <shiftplusone> Then you'll need to extract your .config from the kernel and prepare the source for compiling modules
[21:37] <shiftplusone> I end up cross-compiling from my pc because it's faster and more convenient, once you have things set up.
[21:37] <user22> a toolchain yes.
[21:38] <shiftplusone> yup (there's one provided on raspberrypi's github account too)
[21:38] <user22> I will try it. :)
[21:38] <shiftplusone> under tools, iirc. Use the linaro one.
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[21:47] <user22> shift I'm not finding the source for modules/3.12.31+ can you point me towards the right location. Binaries at:https://github.com/raspberrypi/firmware/tree/master/modules/3.12.31%2B
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[21:49] <shiftplusone> https://github.com/raspberrypi/linux
[21:50] <shiftplusone> the whole thing
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[21:52] <user22> Of course.. sorry didn't notice /linux/
[21:52] <user22> setting up toolchain now.. thanks.
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[21:57] <- *mpmctoo* I'm not here at the moment, your message has been logged and I'll get back to you when I can / %
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[22:17] <user22> shiftplusone are you still there?
[22:18] <user22> While git is cloning I would to ask you something about modprobe if you agree with I think it is the problem.
[22:19] <shiftplusone> Yes sir
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[22:20] <shiftplusone> huh?
[22:21] <user22> I compiled a driver for Rasp, but when I loaded it with modprobe it said: ERROR: could not insert 'mchpar1xxx': Exec format error
[22:21] <user22> thats because it was compiled with diferent kernel sources right?
[22:22] <shiftplusone> was it?
[22:22] <user22> probably.
[22:22] <shiftplusone> I don't know, I haven't had many issues doing it my way. I compile everything (kernel and modules together) then rsync across.
[22:24] <gordonDrogon> user22, sure you compiled it for ARM?
[22:24] <user22> @shiftplusone: You're used to doing it. As for me, I got my Rasp yesterday, still getting used to things.
[22:24] <user22> @gordonDrogon: yes
[22:24] <shiftplusone> of course, I was in your position a few years ago.
[22:25] <user22> @gordonDrogon: I compiled in Rasp itself.
[22:25] <shiftplusone> that quick?
[22:26] <user22> Didn't took long. Since I didnt had the build for 3.12.31+ and no candidate sources available on apt-get I used the closest possible
[22:26] <user22> thats when you said Raspdebian doesnt publish source packages and we went to git to get them. (still cloning)
[22:27] <user22> raspbian**
[22:27] <shiftplusone> ah, then yeah, that's likely to be your problem.
[22:27] <shiftplusone> though to clear things up. Raspbian DOES provide the source package, headers and all the things you need.
[22:28] <shiftplusone> The raspberry pi foundation, does not.
[22:28] <shiftplusone> You're running a foundation kernel
[22:29] <user22> Wouldn't we be better of using Raspbian official kernel then?
[22:30] <shiftplusone> depends
[22:31] <shiftplusone> What should happen is that the foundation should provide all the things. However, asb, the guy who does the packaging for them, hasn't gotten around to it. He has a lot of things going on.
[22:32] <shiftplusone> And nobody else seems to have stepped up.
[22:33] <user22> It's normal on many community projects.
[22:33] <user22> Out of curiosity, have you deployed Qt applications on Raspbian?
[22:35] <plugwash> shiftplusone, for the record i've said in the past that i'd be happy to put together source packages for them
[22:36] <user22> Why haven't they accepted your help?
[22:36] <user22> *he's
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[22:37] <plugwash> heck for the kernel/firmware packages nightly.raspberrypi.org (which I set up for them during a brief period of contracting) is already building source packages that contain at least the correct kernel source (I can't guarantee they contain the correct userland source because the rpf have failed to find a way to check that)
[22:37] <plugwash> *failed to provide a way
[22:37] <plugwash> (but the rpi userland source is not so serious because it's not GPL)
[22:37] <shiftplusone> plugwash, ah thanks.
[22:38] <user22> good job
[22:39] <shiftplusone> I know Gordon and asb at least are keen on getting this sorted out and I've been nudged in that direction. I just don't know anything about the debian build system, so I've avoided it myself.
[22:40] <plugwash> maybe we can have a chat about it when I come visit
[22:41] <plugwash> you working for raspberry pi permanently now?
[22:41] <plugwash> (I remember you were mentioned as an intern)
[22:42] <shiftplusone> Nuh, not really permanent.
[22:43] * plugwash initially assumed when you were announced as an intern that you were at uni and doing it over the summer or something but if that was the case you'd be back in uni by now
[22:44] <shiftplusone> I finished my studies a while back. Just needed the 3 months to get the degree itself.
[22:45] <plugwash> what was your degree in?
[22:45] <shiftplusone> Electrical engineering and business management.
[22:45] <plugwash> seems a slightly strange combination but maybe it works
[22:47] <shiftplusone> Yeah, the management side isn't really.... useful.
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[22:57] <user22> @shiftplusone: setting up the toolchain, arm-linux-gnueabihf-gcc (linaro) working ok, just setting up the environment now..
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[23:02] <plugwash> Just needed the 3 months to get the degree itself. <-- was this a PHD or something?
[23:03] <shiftplusone> Nope, just your plan ol' bachelor's degree.
[23:04] <shiftplusone> Part of an Engineers Australia requirement.
[23:13] <user22> @shiftplusone: I do not know if you will be around by the time git finishes cloning. Thefore just to be on the safe side, how should I setup Raspbian source to compile modules?
[23:14] <shiftplusone> copy the .config in there. then make "ARCH=arm CROSS_COMPILE=arm-linux-gnueabihf-" I believe you don't actually have to compile the whole kernel. There should be a 'prepare' target or something like that
[23:14] <shiftplusone> as for the actual module, check the documentation (modules.txt) which will tell you how it all works
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[23:23] <user22> @shiftplusone: Thank you.
[23:23] <shiftplusone> np
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